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	<title>Comments on: The bufo marinus option</title>
	<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/</link>
	<description>hopping along the corridors of power</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26994</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 13:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26994</guid>
		<description>Regarding the original post on nuclear power stations, nonotechnologists are developing an alternative to nuclear and hydrogen fuels as solutions to climate change. 

I have only been able to find 2 links.
The first is rather technical, and is on page 50 of the report.
http://www.ornl.gov/adm/ldrd/FY2006/LDRD_FY2006.pdf

The second is less technical
http://www.ornl.gov/info/news/pulse/pulse_v198_05.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the original post on nuclear power stations, nonotechnologists are developing an alternative to nuclear and hydrogen fuels as solutions to climate change. </p>
<p>I have only been able to find 2 links.<br />
The first is rather technical, and is on page 50 of the report.<br />
<a href="http://www.ornl.gov/adm/ldrd/FY2006/LDRD_FY2006.pdf" >http://www.ornl.gov/adm/ldrd/FY2006/LDRD_FY2006.pdf</a></p>
<p>The second is less technical<br />
<a href="http://www.ornl.gov/info/news/pulse/pulse_v198_05.pdf" >http://www.ornl.gov/info/news/pulse/pulse_v198_05.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26971</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 13:39:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26971</guid>
		<description>Alistair, Ok, now that I have had a chance to do some research on motorism I can appreciate your view on discrimination against motorists.
The emerging discrimination against motorists is real, but only really  bad when it is being used to deny an underlying cause, for instance blaming traffic growth on everything other than our love affair with quarter acre sections.  Worldcarfree.net is an excellent source of (mostly) objective and authoritive information. Thanks for govong me the incnetive to look and learn.

In regard to your last post, this goes well beyond being a discrimination issue. It is fundamental to our system of justice that we have the right to a fair trial before being punished. The only exception to this is where our actions are an immediate threat to others. In this situation the Police and citizens must be permitted to intervene to prevent harm. The problem with the boy-racer law is the vagueness of the phrases "sustained loss of traction" and "exhibition of speed or acceleration" and the fact that a police officer will not be required to prove that the offence actually occurred until after the punishment has occurred.  Because there are also demerit points involved some drivers have defended the charges and had them dismissed. The decision of the judges was different from that of the police officer and this is not at all unusual, in fact it is probably why we have seperate police and justice structures. 
The only case reported in the media that I am aware of can be found at scoop.co.nz if you search google for "boy racer legislation" you'll find it, and the parliamentary debate with Clayton Cosgrove's introduction/explanation of the Bill. I find it is always useful to compare what was intended with what has actually happened if we don't want to make the same mistakes again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alistair, Ok, now that I have had a chance to do some research on motorism I can appreciate your view on discrimination against motorists.<br />
The emerging discrimination against motorists is real, but only really  bad when it is being used to deny an underlying cause, for instance blaming traffic growth on everything other than our love affair with quarter acre sections.  Worldcarfree.net is an excellent source of (mostly) objective and authoritive information. Thanks for govong me the incnetive to look and learn.</p>
<p>In regard to your last post, this goes well beyond being a discrimination issue. It is fundamental to our system of justice that we have the right to a fair trial before being punished. The only exception to this is where our actions are an immediate threat to others. In this situation the Police and citizens must be permitted to intervene to prevent harm. The problem with the boy-racer law is the vagueness of the phrases &#8220;sustained loss of traction&#8221; and &#8220;exhibition of speed or acceleration&#8221; and the fact that a police officer will not be required to prove that the offence actually occurred until after the punishment has occurred.  Because there are also demerit points involved some drivers have defended the charges and had them dismissed. The decision of the judges was different from that of the police officer and this is not at all unusual, in fact it is probably why we have seperate police and justice structures.<br />
The only case reported in the media that I am aware of can be found at scoop.co.nz if you search google for &#8220;boy racer legislation&#8221; you&#8217;ll find it, and the parliamentary debate with Clayton Cosgrove&#8217;s introduction/explanation of the Bill. I find it is always useful to compare what was intended with what has actually happened if we don&#8217;t want to make the same mistakes again.</p>
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		<title>By: alistair</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26920</link>
		<dc:creator>alistair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 13:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26920</guid>
		<description>Cross-post. OK, so you don't actually object to roadside impoundment, only to the fact that according to you, it is abused. Unless you can make a case that it is abused in an absolutely random fashion, and therefore equally likely to affect absolutely any motorist, it's hard to see how this could constitute discrimination against motorists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cross-post. OK, so you don&#8217;t actually object to roadside impoundment, only to the fact that according to you, it is abused. Unless you can make a case that it is abused in an absolutely random fashion, and therefore equally likely to affect absolutely any motorist, it&#8217;s hard to see how this could constitute discrimination against motorists.</p>
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		<title>By: alistair</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26919</link>
		<dc:creator>alistair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 13:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26919</guid>
		<description>No, I just had a wild guess about what you were on about when you say the car-using ethnic group "face punishment before conviction with no right to seek compensation".
I see now that you consider that "roadside impoundment is punishment before trial". I prefer to see it as protecting people from themselves, and from each other. A car is the most lethal weapon most of us ever use, and I don't believe I have the right to use mine when it is, or I am, in a dangerous condition, for example.

If, on the other hand, you consider that the right of citizens to drive cars shall not be infringed, then we had better abolish speed limits, drink drive regulations etc. No point in having laws you're not allowed to enforce.

But I do object to being told that I, as a motorist, am a victim of discrimination. Speak for yourself mate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I just had a wild guess about what you were on about when you say the car-using ethnic group &#8220;face punishment before conviction with no right to seek compensation&#8221;.<br />
I see now that you consider that &#8220;roadside impoundment is punishment before trial&#8221;. I prefer to see it as protecting people from themselves, and from each other. A car is the most lethal weapon most of us ever use, and I don&#8217;t believe I have the right to use mine when it is, or I am, in a dangerous condition, for example.</p>
<p>If, on the other hand, you consider that the right of citizens to drive cars shall not be infringed, then we had better abolish speed limits, drink drive regulations etc. No point in having laws you&#8217;re not allowed to enforce.</p>
<p>But I do object to being told that I, as a motorist, am a victim of discrimination. Speak for yourself mate.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26918</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 13:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26918</guid>
		<description>PS:- I mentioned punishment before conviction because this is what roadside confiscation is. Not a problem when its a drunk driver over the legal legal limit but a real problem in the so-called boy racer legislation which is entirely at the discretion of the officer and the law isn't limited to boy racers or even to what most of us think of as boy racer behaviour (racing, donuts, etc.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS:- I mentioned punishment before conviction because this is what roadside confiscation is. Not a problem when its a drunk driver over the legal legal limit but a real problem in the so-called boy racer legislation which is entirely at the discretion of the officer and the law isn&#8217;t limited to boy racers or even to what most of us think of as boy racer behaviour (racing, donuts, etc.)</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26917</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 13:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26917</guid>
		<description>Alistair, I don't know where you get the idea that I want to abolish traffic tickets unless you think that is how we pay for traffic law enforcement. That's been a responsibility of the land transport fund since 1989.
Actually, it is the World Health Organisation that said this in their World Report On Road Traffic Injury Prevention (2004) which was the basis for the recent United Nations Global Road Safety Week.
Nearly everyone is a teenager or a child at some time yet they are a "group" discrminated against, sometimes for good reasons and sometimes not.
Car club or cycling club?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alistair, I don&#8217;t know where you get the idea that I want to abolish traffic tickets unless you think that is how we pay for traffic law enforcement. That&#8217;s been a responsibility of the land transport fund since 1989.<br />
Actually, it is the World Health Organisation that said this in their World Report On Road Traffic Injury Prevention (2004) which was the basis for the recent United Nations Global Road Safety Week.<br />
Nearly everyone is a teenager or a child at some time yet they are a &#8220;group&#8221; discrminated against, sometimes for good reasons and sometimes not.<br />
Car club or cycling club?</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26916</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 13:05:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26916</guid>
		<description>Stuey, A little confusion seems to have crept in here.  

The comment about discrimination was a general reference to BigBruv's earlier comments.  It is a fact that some basic human rights of motorists are being eroded or ignored, especially the right not to be deprived of life (by roading authorities amongst others) and the right of innocent until proved guilty (roadside impoundment is punishment before trial).  What is happenning to motorists is the exact opposite of what is happening to homosexuals.  A sane society shouldn't be capable of correcting historic wrongs to one group whilst imposing new wrongs on another group.

The reference to TINA and traffic reduction was a badly worded attempt to avoid sounding like I was condemning all greens as motorphobic. Traffic reduction is definitely Green transport policy. (Perhaps somebody can provide Stuey with the link).  Labour's transport policy seems to be to use the transport fund to buy the support of coalition partners and reward Labour electorates, so their commitment to traffic reduction has simply been to increase funding for public transport. I suspect they see motorists as too much of a cash cow.

Christchucrh City has been following this policy for at least 15 years. Very little success on main roads but very good results on residential streets which really feel like they are beginning to belong to residents again. The point I really was trying to make originally is that even if an idea is good or partially good we should still be looking for even better ideas even if we have to look in unpleasant places or might have to admit we were wrong or stupid.  We should never let an idealogy or prejudice stop us from looking at other ideas obectively. At least thats what Ive learnt being a systems analyst.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuey, A little confusion seems to have crept in here.  </p>
<p>The comment about discrimination was a general reference to BigBruv&#8217;s earlier comments.  It is a fact that some basic human rights of motorists are being eroded or ignored, especially the right not to be deprived of life (by roading authorities amongst others) and the right of innocent until proved guilty (roadside impoundment is punishment before trial).  What is happenning to motorists is the exact opposite of what is happening to homosexuals.  A sane society shouldn&#8217;t be capable of correcting historic wrongs to one group whilst imposing new wrongs on another group.</p>
<p>The reference to TINA and traffic reduction was a badly worded attempt to avoid sounding like I was condemning all greens as motorphobic. Traffic reduction is definitely Green transport policy. (Perhaps somebody can provide Stuey with the link).  Labour&#8217;s transport policy seems to be to use the transport fund to buy the support of coalition partners and reward Labour electorates, so their commitment to traffic reduction has simply been to increase funding for public transport. I suspect they see motorists as too much of a cash cow.</p>
<p>Christchucrh City has been following this policy for at least 15 years. Very little success on main roads but very good results on residential streets which really feel like they are beginning to belong to residents again. The point I really was trying to make originally is that even if an idea is good or partially good we should still be looking for even better ideas even if we have to look in unpleasant places or might have to admit we were wrong or stupid.  We should never let an idealogy or prejudice stop us from looking at other ideas obectively. At least thats what Ive learnt being a systems analyst.</p>
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		<title>By: alistair</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26915</link>
		<dc:creator>alistair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 12:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26915</guid>
		<description>OK I get it Kev... you want parking and speeding tickets abolished. And you disagree that motorists cause road deaths.

Everyone's entitled to their views, however strange. Why don't you form a political party?

But calling "motorists" a "group" that are discriminated against, is a rather weird way of looking at reality. Nearly everyone is a motorist at some time. "Motorism" is a behaviour, not an identity. If you identify with other people because they drive cars like you, then you should probably get out more. Join a club perhaps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK I get it Kev&#8230; you want parking and speeding tickets abolished. And you disagree that motorists cause road deaths.</p>
<p>Everyone&#8217;s entitled to their views, however strange. Why don&#8217;t you form a political party?</p>
<p>But calling &#8220;motorists&#8221; a &#8220;group&#8221; that are discriminated against, is a rather weird way of looking at reality. Nearly everyone is a motorist at some time. &#8220;Motorism&#8221; is a behaviour, not an identity. If you identify with other people because they drive cars like you, then you should probably get out more. Join a club perhaps.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26900</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 02:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26900</guid>
		<description>Kahikatea - Bob Semple agreed with you. In 1947 he introduced motorways as the means to separate motorists and pedestrians in places such as Huntly and Otaki. Its a pity later politicians insisted on building all the motorways in big cities where they don't achieve this objective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kahikatea - Bob Semple agreed with you. In 1947 he introduced motorways as the means to separate motorists and pedestrians in places such as Huntly and Otaki. Its a pity later politicians insisted on building all the motorways in big cities where they don&#8217;t achieve this objective.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26899</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 02:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/04/29/the-bufo-marinus-option/#comment-26899</guid>
		<description>Alistair - the emerging discrimination against motorists is more akin to the discrimination faced by Maori prior to the Treaty settlement process beginning. Does any other group in society pay a special law enforcement tax? Or face punishment before conviction with no right to seek compensation? Or pay for government propaganda blaming the bloodshed occurring on government roads on the users of the roads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alistair - the emerging discrimination against motorists is more akin to the discrimination faced by Maori prior to the Treaty settlement process beginning. Does any other group in society pay a special law enforcement tax? Or face punishment before conviction with no right to seek compensation? Or pay for government propaganda blaming the bloodshed occurring on government roads on the users of the roads.</p>
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