Johnny Cash once said, “I never went to bed with an ugly woman but I certainly woke up with a few.� So it sounds like a man not only is expected to carry around condoms and a consent form but a breathalyser as will. I understand that a man can also be charged or having sex with a female who is of unsound mind. So in the case of many females on this blog such as you a man should bring along a psychiatrist as well.

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I am quite opposed to such cliches from the old style “victim model” of feminism and am pleased to say that I moved beyond that model a very long time ago and I am certainly a stronger woman for it.

However, I personally did not interpret Katie’s meaning as you have here and I think that the power imbalance issue is very much of importance when it is being applied to relationships such as those in these trials. Not saying it is an issue in all cases, but we are talking about this particular case here, OK.

And please forgive me if I misinterpreted your meaning above, but I get the sense from your words that you are implying that the women in this case were in a position to give their empowered consent (and hence should not be judged for their choices).

After all, these girls were drunk at the time and how much freedom does a drunk (or stoned) woman have to say no to sex, and especially when there are three very much larger sober adult males grouped around her like that?

Certainly I agree that part of being liberated is making choices, but it also has to be taken into account how much freedom she has to make her choice under the circumstances.

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Katie – I disagree that admitting sexual power imbalances exist and are normal “shows breathtaking ignorance”. I think that the conclusion demanded by your argument is that women can only have sex with those they consider less or equal in power, never those they perceive to be more powerful. As a feminist, I don’t find this acceptable. It’s up there with the ‘all sex is rape’ way of seeing the world which I find really disempowering. Surely part of being liberated is being able to make choices about sex – who, when, where – and not be judged for those choices.

Molly

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I’ve posted on this case in the member’s forum, so go there, those who have access. I won’t repost here, but you can view at

http://indymedia.org.nz/newswire/display/72704/index.php

where you will see language that doesn’t appear in frogblog thrown at me in the replies.

As a footnote to alister’s post, I am also a mother, and on the night we marched, my children were firmly locked up at home, with their babysitter.
My 19-year-old uni student flatmate was comfortable with joining me on the march, and as a fresh new law student, enjoyed the atmosphere immensely!

These actions are about empowering women, especially rape survivors, but all women need empowerment in our society, specifically iin response to comments like:
(tussock)
What’s all this power imbalance crap people are talking about? Surely we’re entitled to have sex with people who aren’t our perfect equals without being labeled morally repugnant. I mean, welcome to the real world, eh.

This shows such breathtaking ignorance of the inherant power that is accorded to male citizens inour society, I’m astounded. I’m assuming he has white and middle-class priviledge as well, simply because of the unfeigned superiority implicit in such a statement.

I’m sure you, tussock, have never been in a situation where you have been coerced by another adult into sex you didn’t want to have, but sit a bunch of women down over a drink, and most of us have a story or two about a rape or near-rape exerience. Swapping stories of how to get away from those kind of experiences is how women survive.She who fights and runs away, etc.

To all the people who have posted compassionaltely and clarified this topic for those who needed clarification, thank you.

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In fact, whether I myself trust the police is less important than whether my daughter does. If I have misgivings, I can keep her at home (perhaps), or take the risk of letting her go out. But if she has misgivings, she may end up in some sort of dicey situation (she inevitably will sooner or later) and hesitate to call the cops.

And that’s far worse.

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I strongly disagree. I trust my doctor. That doesn’t mean I trust my doctor blindly, I may question her judgement and ask for other opinions. BUT I trust that she will do her best for me, in what she considers to be my best interests, according to her professional conscience and ethics.

I DEMAND the same level of conscience and ethics from the police. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Well, actually that’s probably unfair, or in any case hard to attain. The cops don’t go through rigorous selection and training like doctors do. They are more on a par with teachers in this respect. That’s a problem, because they have far greater power than teachers. Their power is more on a par with that of doctors. This disparity between training/ethics and power is the heart of the problem.

For example, there are a couple of my daughters’ teachers who I consider to be idiots, unfit to teach. That’s a problem, but it’s not a huge deal, because one teacher doesn’t have all that much power to mess up the life of a kid, much less than a doctor or a cop anyway.

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To demand an apology from the Police for things that MIGHT have been done in the 80’s is absurd, she is simply grandstanding for political gain, it is no coincidence that she is vocal about this at the time her anti smacking bill is going through the house.

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The police are public servants, as are our friends in politics and those in the justice system. It is up to us as the citizens to demand better standards, laws and service from them – and ensure that we get it!

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One should never trust the police. One may have need to make use of their services in regards criminal wrongdoing, but one should absolutely not trust them any more than you would any other person, especially considering the extraordinary legal powers they have.

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Does this mean – if the defence puts nothing on the table then the meal is over before it has begun? The prosecutions evidence is therefore not part of the menu? OR does this relate to character references only.

What I am trying to discover is why so much prosecution objective evidence never made it to the banquet.

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In the recent trials – one has to ask – where were the police witnessess who knew about the activities of the 3 that were accused . Why have none of them come forward now, or if they did, made themselves known? – where is their individual integrity – are their mates and the police system more important than the human qualities that we all aspire to? For those who have left the force and knew about RSand S and others, why have they not come forward?

If the police is to regain a less suspicious relationship with the public that it serves – it has to show that these days it does not tollerate murkyness, closed ranks, inappropriate behaviour or injustice. I hear not a peep from Howard Broad, Annette King (apart from posters) Rob Pope – yet!

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i’m sorry but there’s no such principle in law. i’ll have to refer you back to my previous post.

but there is an “equlity of evidence” of sorts in that if the defendant uses his character as a defence, then the prosecution may give evidence to the contrary.

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We don’t actually have to trust the “police” but we do have to insist that we are being listened to, treated with respect and that our rights are being protected. Individual members of the policeforce need to insist on the same conditions within the force. This is “self responsibility” first “group responsibility’ second. Trust is gained through association/experience and self confidence. It is not something that we give away.

Your daughter is the same age as Louise when she was first raped by a friend of the family who happened to be a cop. You can teach her to be aware and to trust her gut feelings but most of all to show her love. Love and awareness will produce more of the same, fear and anger as I have said previously will also create more of the same. It is a choice we all have to make every moment.

Lets push to get these historical laws bought up to date so that “justice” comes back into the NZ judicial system. Then with better laws that cannot be manipulated, as we have seen recently, group trust may begin to filter back. A good starting point is honesty – self-honesty.

If you look at the bigger picture internationally you will notice that it is really more of the same….power, violence, injustice, lies, cover-ups ….. It is a time when perpetrators are being found out and truth (whatever that is) is coming to the surface. So its a time for “truth” to surface in NZ as well.

Watch the “Sunday” programme for more revelations to come about the last trial – call it misplaced evidence!

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SPC and Michelangelo have covered this pretty comprehensively… I’m impressed… Just a personal observation.

I have a 13 year old daughter. It is desperately important to me that she should be able to trust the police. What are my alternatives? Send her to a convent, or hire a security guard?

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A university student accused another student of rape. The accused parent’s were divorced. However, they worked together to help him. This cost them about 30 – 35k.

Before the case went to court the student confessed to making the whole thing up. She got sentenced to community service, was ordered to pay about 5k cost (which I doubt if she paid) and was given permanent name suppression.

I actually appeared on a TV debate on the issue of rape and false complaints on a show compared by Ian Frazer. I was in a minority compared with the militant feminist. The reason I was on was because I volunteered after being a juror on a rape trial where the complainant clearly committed perjury. I will not go into detail but I was so appalled at wasting three days listening to a pack of lies that I called the police prosecutor and asked why the case went to court. He said that it was police policy to let the jury decided if a complainant sticks to her story.

I then asked why she was not prosecuted for perjury. He did not dispute the fact that she lied under oath which was obvious but said if we prosecuted such a case it would discourage legitimate complaints.

Hopefully, there are a few on this blog who would like to look for a solution rather than bash men. The ideal solution would allow the justice system to find those who commit rape guilty while not increasing the number of innocent men falsely convicted and hopefully reducing the number going to court when there is not a case to answer.

If a reasonable solution could be found it is doubtful the government would listen. One only has to listen to the smacking debate – a reasonable compromise is proposed and it is rejected by Sue Bradford who thinks violence is only justified if perpetrated by her. I supposed spitting in the face of a policeman is not violence – oh well he was a potential pack rapist

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If it is not admissable to say that defendants had priors, then it is not admissable to say that the complainant made up allegations on other occasions.

If a man trying to pick up females for casual sex is not indicative of predatory behaviour that shows a risk of rape, then her sexual past does not speak to any suggestion that she would not have denied consent on any occasion to anyone.

If consent is not to be presumed on any occasion, then a history of consent has no bearing on any subsequent occasion.

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No. Leadership of a region over the mainstream force would do nothing to restore confidence that such a culture in police was historic.

He has however been paid 450,000 over 3 years and is likely to get 300,000 more even if he does not return to the job. They should offer him another job on a 2 year contract.

Why not establish an anti-violence Commission. He could do work preparing for it’s foundation. In the future, one of the deputy’s to such a commissioner could come from the police force.

Such could relate to an idea that there should be advocacy to the parole Baord for the public safety whenever someone with a violent past is up for parole.

Some gathering of research on violence – and associated abuse of power (with a reference to Maori statistics and also gangs) in our society and a programme for police playing a role in dealing with causes (in support of others) and effective police management etc. The “Peter Doone” shuffle.

Otherwise police HQ should focus on professional standards for the police (and develope this and release it as soon as possible after the piolice inquiiry findings come out in a few weeks).

The issue is what professional standards the police have. All professional groups have such expectations. This group which has a role of public trust should have a standard of behaviour expectation. The question is of course, where the boundary between profession/public trust role and private life is.

Teachers can “date” people of school age 16-18 – but not pupils in the school where they teach. Doctors can date anyone of the public but their patients. Being in uniform or being on duty (work hours) is part of one’s public role, as is driving around in a police vehicle. This provides a clear separation of public and private life. The next boundary, is where behaviour “as a group of police officers” reflects on the police in general (that is while private relationships and such is personal business, being a group of off duty police officers sharing the same women the way a gang does reflects badly on the police).

One police officer represents himself, a group represents the police force and this can result in an abusive breach of trust/power which could intimidate people. Thus an apparent consent which was coerced by their circumstance, rather than being a genuine one.

The other matter is of course, relationships between police force memebrs of differing ranks where one is boss over the other. Most organisations premised on rank have an issue with internal power being abused in relationships with junior ranks.

None of this speaks to what individual officers legally do in their private life, nor should it. But after this, only such a professional code puts the past in the past and prevents such cultures developing again.
Other matters such as consorting with known cons, people under investigation etc would also have to be covered.

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I would think that a term of imprisonment should normally be appropriate for a false allegation of the nature you suggest, but don’t know the full circumstances or what mitigating factors may have been taken into account by the Court.

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