by Russel Norman
After delivering the State of the Planet speech on Waiheke, I’ve headed down to Blenheim to join the Anti Bases Coalition in protesting the US spy base at Waihopai, outside Blenheim. The Waihopai spy bases is a joint facility between the US and NZ. It is probably the main way that we contribute to Bush’s war of terror (as Borat accurately portrayed it) and the war for oil in Iraq. The global intelligence gathering process coordinated by the US is key to conducting these wars and Waihopai is part of that. We shouldn’t be helping George Bush with his war of terror or war for oil.
Published in Environment & Resource Management by Russel Norman on Sat, January 20th, 2007
Tags: environment
More posts by Russel Norman | more about Russel Norman
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Russel:
Our family is sorry not to be there with you all, but we are with you in spirit.
Very best wishes for the protest!
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Given that the jerks in the White House seem to ignore the intelligence community anyway it may be just as reasonable to leave the intell groups alone.
More reasonable perhaps to demonstrate at the consulate in Auckland or the Embassy in Wellington.
Not that they’d take notice of that in Washington either…
…far be it from me to merely offer criticism however….
A global call for the impeachment of Bush and Cheney might press the Dems into growing a spine. It’d be a far more sensible way of changing US policy than this demonstration looks to be. Persuade the Dems to impeach and we’ve actually DONE something. Making local nuisances of ourselves just gets us known locally as a nuisance.
Green organizations could get behind a call for impeachment and organize it, and it’d make some sense. It’s up to the American public to make that change happen. Up to us to encourage them.
Communicate with Green organisations internationally to suggest this.
I also suggest go gently…. too strident a voice will get middle-america annoyed with interference in their internal affairs. Some will no matter what, but we want to keep middle-america on-side. Make it clear that we know it is their decision… even as we ask them to take it.
respectfully
BJ
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I see this as a good thing. I protest against the protesters. Accurate, and timely intelligence is important. Just imagine what the world might say if you make serious decisions based on bad intel.
Communicate with Green organisations internationally to suggest this.
Are, so you are an international cabal working in concert to achieve your aims. The conspiracy unmasked.
.
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bj: This is our country, and therefore our protest (which happens annually) is directed towards:
1. reminding the New Zealand Government (who originally allowed these bases on our soil) that they continue to allow a foreign country to use these bases for its own ends … dsespite the fact that our World views and Foreign Policies now differ markedly from those of the USA.
2. remind (or inform) the citizens of Aotearoa/New Zealand that these bases are on our soil but outside our control, and the current implications of this.
Far be it from the Green Party of Aotearoa/NZ to interfere in the political systems of the USA!
That is your perogative as an American Citizen, along with all the millions of other concerned American Citizens, and frankly I am amazed that you
(a) are not heavily involved in doing just that and (b) that you suggest that it would be appropriate for us to interfere!
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US: “Hey, those banner wavers have a point! Why didn’t we see this before? Let’s shut it down right now!”.
NZ Govt: “Hey, those banner wavers have a point! Why didn’t we see this before? Let’s shut it down right now!”
NZ Citizens: “Hey, those banner wavers have a point! Why didn’t we see this before? Let’s shut it down right now!”
Is it just me, or are the left running short on ideas these days?
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Zen Tiger:
Accurate and timely intelligence IS important! Before you “protest about the protesters”, I suggest you find out why they are protesting.
1 The “intelligence” gathered and sent through these Bases does not have to be revealed to the New Zealand Government. Therefore they/we have no “checks and balances”, no chance to question or correct misinformation (often involving our own region of the world.)
2. Anyone who currently follows world affairs (from sources different than those used by Fox News et al) will realise that under the current Administation in the USA, there are heavy doses of dis-information in mainstream media (which unfortunately permiate through into our media).
The current craze of “bring people to justice” etc is a good example to think about. Apart from the imorality of the “process”, it would not be “a good look” for Aotearoa/NZ to be any part of handing on misinformation … and we just don’t know if we are!!
If you disagree, there are many well informed Americans who are very concerned about what is going on, and I strongly suggest that you revise, or add to, your list of sources of information. (Just ask on this blog and you’ll get some excellent and interesting suggestions for you to try!)
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Interesting…..yet so many here get upset when I accuse the greens of being anti American.
This post and the comments after only confirm my suspicions.
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eredwen
There you go again!..you cannot claim that “our world views” differ from the Americans.
You DO NOT speak for all Kiwi’s.
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PeterExits Left:
Unfortunately “it isn’t just you”, but I do assure you that “the Greens” (and many on “the left”) are not and never have been short of ideas!
I’m curious:
Do you ever try to “put yourself into another’s shoes” to find out why they think as they do?
Why do you come to this website? Do you wish to learn?
(I suspect that you, while here, seek supporters in derision of “the left”.)
Do we bother you that much?
We are “Green” which is a different dimension than “left”. Haven’t you worked that out yet?
ANYWAY, getting back to your question:
Hopefully you will never personally have to understand why we are concerned about Waihopi …
and to quote Margaret Mead (again):
“Never doubt that a small group of commited citizens can change the World. In fact it is the only thing that ever has.”
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eredwen
What IS the difference between Green and Left?
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ZenTiger
I don’t actually make it a SECRET how I feel about the current US Administration…
Doesn’t a cabal have to be secret?
Eredwen
If New Zealanders secretly funded an effort to change the government of the USA, or financed advertising in the USA with the intent of making a change in the electoral outcomes, that’d be as wrong as the Exclusive Brethren peeing in our pool. That isn’t what I proposed. I personally have made the point many times in the US. It is entirely possible that impeachment hearings could start before Easter.
Protesting in the boondocks at the fences around some base that houses nobody who makes ANY decisions, and where people in general can’t even see that there is a protest happening, is only sensible as symbolism. It doesn’t do anything real.
Feel free. I’d rather spend what little political capital we have on things that actually hold some potential of moving the ball in the direction of the goal.
Big Bruv – The difference is that the “left” is not necessarily concerned with ecological issues. Greens tend to be more tolerant and pragmatic…. (well sometimes)… about technology. Greens have different ideas and ideals about taxes and government in general… but the overlap IS considerable.
respectfully
BJ
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Chinese missile destroys satellite in space
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=RARWOTSLG0LDBQFIQMGSFFWAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2007/01/19/wchina19.xml
One thing about the Americans is that they have a relatively open society (ever heard of Michael Moore, for instance?); Compare that to China.
I see an inconsistency in the way “the Greens” hound American “spy bases” and yet give Achmed Zhoui a free pass.
JH
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jh
No inconsistency!
Greens have “done their homework” and are aware that the “popular” version of “Ahmed Zaoui the terrorist” is very far from accurate. When the disinformation clears (which it will) the way in which he has been treated will go down in our history as a scandal.
Read “I almost forgot about the moon … the disinformation campaign against Ahmed Zaoui” by Selwyn Manning, Yasmine Ryan and Katie Small.
It is important for people to realise what happened and why our system failed, and it is all very well researched and documented in this 143 page book.
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I can see arguments on both sides. It is interesting that Malaysia wouldn’t take him. Being an Islamic country you would think they would be in a better postion to judge. (or is it that the malaysian govt, fears Islamists)?
Also, Helen Clark is a liberal, surley she has seen the secret information on Ahmed Zhoui?.
Getting back to the Americans, are the Greens concerned about capitalism or consumerism (are the Greens a broad spectrum party devoted primarily to the environment, or a vehicle for the far left)?
And what about the Chinese missile?
JH
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JH
What about the Chinese missile? Overall I see no problem with it. The Chinese have a space program, a real one.
The USA has declared its military hegemony over all of outer space, and while I think that that is merely a limitation of the shrub’s command of English, the intentions with respect to LEO and Luna are pretty clear.
The Chinese development is definitely aimed at the US Military, and its current near monopoly and heavy reliance on space based surveillance. I don’t welcome it, but there is nothing in it that makes me feel a need to protest at the Chinese embassy.
————
The interlock between capitalism/consumerism (are you differentiating here, and how? I might refine this answer if I don’t lump everything together) and the environment is basically the need for continuous and unending growth implicit in them, at least as they are practiced today. That’s an economic reality, not a political opinion. Green means sustainable and sustainable means that, contrary to current practice, growth is NOT all good, greater consumption is NOT all good, and so we come into conflict with Business (which likes to be followed by the words “as usual”). If nothing else changes associated with CO2 limits have to stop that tail from wagging the dog.
There are some here who are more purely against big business. I personally consider the crimes of Lockheed-Martin against the Space Program and the crimes of Microsoft against its competition and find it difficult to hold my temper, but those are specific.
Since you linked this with America I will comment a little more on that aspect. Right now the US governmnent is subjugated by the beast that Eisenhower (that flaming commie) warned us of, the “military-industrial complex”. Democracy in the US is in a sorry state of disarray and the Democratic party is almost as beholden to the business interests as the Republicans.
That creates another layer of mistrust for a LOT of Americans. There are many more voting with clothespins on their noses than with genuine enthusiasm for the list of candidates from which they select. I think you’d be amazed at the extent to which both liberals and libertarians are underrepresented.
The system doesn’t like either.
respectfully
BJ
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Really, the Waihopai issue is so tiresome. Surely one can see that there has to be international cooperation on intelligence issues. To suggest that the NZ government dosen’t know about the intelliegnce collected is just another bit of disinformation
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The issue surrounding Waihopai is not so much that it there (or over there), it is that it is required at all. If one doesnt understand ‘how’ is works then protest is just vanity. ECHELON and how ‘aquisative’ it is in logging everything.. internet, fax, phone etc… distilling it through a ‘dictionary’ in order to locate meme’s of intel. When your name is on a list, it does everything it can to keep you there. It doesnt care too much about nationality…
If the recent arrest and detainment of journalist, photographer and anti-war activist Ken Kraeseke, [Green Party Secy for Clifford Wallace Thornton's bid for Governership of Connecticut] doesnt alert us… to what it means to be on a list then collectively we deserve the governace we are given.
This grave development occured is inspite of having a constitutional framework.
You think it wont happen here? Oh how quickly things can change when ya have a list!
Waihopai – listening & list’ening.
Ahmed Zaoui was on a L.I.S.T. say it slowly, spell it out.. L.I.S.T
He was guilty of what… Being on someone elses L.I.S.T?
If this is international co-operation, it start to look very inefficient. Anything this flawed cannot be relied upon. Try travelling to the USA, cannabis detection at the ‘gateway’ is such that you can be turned around on the srength of a smell. (1/10,000gm), they wont tell you on a list!
Don’t laugh, it happened… San Francisco airport, passenger disembarks from London. Had a CD. About Industrial Hemp… it was ion detected for presence of ‘zero tolerance’ attitudes present in a fingerprint. He spent 3 nights in jail in San Diago before being shipped back to point of embarcation.
He can never travel to the USA again.
LIST’s WAIHOPAI – same thing!
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Blair
Waihopai is merely a downlink/collection site. It has no interest in what gets done with the data.
If the problem is a LIST then protest the activities and attitudes surrounding that list!!! I have a lot of problems with the lists too, and there are lots of ways to get on them. Worse, you can’t know why you are on one, can’t be taken off it, and can’t challenge it in court because the list and the rules associated with it are secret. JH take note, the openness of the USA was disappearing FAST until the last election.
Associating Zaoui’s treatment with someone’s absurd “war on terror” and the insanity surrounding that and the insane persons in charge of the White House is all perfectly reasonable, but protesting the sigint effort simply for its existence, is not productive and protesting it out in the middle of nowhere, is even less productive. The intell community is in bad odour in Washington because it tends to tell them truth they wish not to hear. Bushco went to a lot of trouble to silence the real spooks.
Neither of which are associated with hemp detection at the border.
I still don’t see it. As an annual event with some symbolic weight it makes a small amount of sense, but I don’t reckon it worth the trouble it makes for us. Who sees it? Where will it be reported?
respectfully
BJ
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BJ,
The protest was reported on National television news last night, (can’t remember if it was one or three), therefore quite a lot of people would have seen it.
Any worth the protest has lies there….it is symbolic of a part of the New Zealand national psyche’s refusal to let the big boys play their games unmolested. The Greens are that voice for many NZ’ers these days – much as the Values party was back in the early days of the No Nukes campaigns.
Maintaining that identity is unlikely to do any harm to the party image, and may very well represent the integrity many NZ’ers seek from their political representatives.
Not that I’m disagreeing with your main point. I’d rather see the numbers outside the US embassy and British high commission – and then see that on TV.
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Fair enough….
and I’d have to actually see the TV news to comment on it
respectfully
BJ
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eredwen,
>>Do you ever try to “put yourself into another’s shoes? to find out why they think as they do?
Yes, that’s why I’m here.
>>We are “Green? which is a different dimension than “left?. Haven’t you worked that out yet?
Really? What is the difference? What has a spy base and Achmed Zhoui got to do with environmentalism?
The more I read, the more my suspicions are confirmed. The Greens are mostly about far-left, anti-Americanism, socialism. The environment is a front.
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bj:
Peaceful protesters beside the two big white balls (among indigenous NZ flora) are shown on the TV News every year. The event and its setting serves as a powerful reminder (for busy Kiwis who forget) that this is a piece of Aotearoa that can be used for doubtful purposes totally outside our control (by a country that is currently behaving very badly in the world!)
The Annual Waihopai Protest is a great opportunity to meet and “catch up” with intelligent, principled and like minded people from various groups throughout Aotearoa. (Its central location is excellent for this.) The chosen camping area is appropriate and the food is delicious!!
Rod Donald, who was a highly intelligent and principled person with excellent political instincts was at Waihopi every year from its inception.
Sometimes it is a good idea to listen and learn, rather than do the unfortunately very common American thing of telling us how we should think and behave in our country …
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PEL, you wrote: “The more I read, the more my suspicions are confirmed. The Greens are mostly about far-left, anti-Americanism, socialism. The environment is a front.”
My reply:
I have given you the benefit of the doubt up until now.
Someone else may be willing to continue to “play your games”, but I am not!
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Does anyone have any polls on what the public think?
Personally I think snooping is a necessary evil (as is a sewerage system). Every society maintains order by snooping; it’s just that we have such a large scale society due to modern communication and transportation, that we need electronic survielance. As BJ pointed out (I think), it is a matter of how it is used.
This issue (to me) is not justified by anything implied by the Green label. I have no objection to people with strong left-wing views but I feel there is a clear idelogical differentiation between Green and the far left (who crank a different handle). I respect individuals who stand for Socialist Unity etc (and get 100 votes), but when they bring their vision to a broader cause and push, push, I feel they are on the wrong team.
Sorry I’m rambling a bit, but when it comes to errant capitalists I’m all for stringing them up; I’m all for taking out as many of the bad elements as we can, but I just don’t think the far-left have anything but some dangerous alternative. The far- left have grabbed the Green Party by the short and curlies and are running for the goal post, (spurred on by Al Gore etc). They won’t have Joe Public with them however, as they part their hair on the wrong side of their head.
JH
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I agree with JH – the far left have indeed grabbed the Green Party.
I am keen on the environment. I like my trees.
But I cannot vote Green – because of the agenda of the far-left.
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jh:
I enjoyed your “ramble”!
“The far- left have grabbed the Green Party by the short and curlies and are running for the goal post, (spurred on by Al Gore etc). They won’t have Joe Public with them however” … (GREAT mental picture!!)
Firstly:
If you regard Al Gore as part of the “far left”, that would put your position “further right than Atilla the Hun”? Wow!!
Secondly:
You haven’t yet managed to grasp the concept of “Green”, which IS a different dimension. (It has been in use for over thirty years, since the Values Party was formed in the early 1970′s … but do keep on trying !)
Thirdly:
Don’t be too sure about “Jo Public” .
I live in a now affluent suburb which has the polling booth with the highest Green “Party-Vote” in the Electorate. In the same booth the majority of “Candidate-Votes” favour the National candidate.
There are a high number of “Blue Green” voters (many of them women who are mothers). So “Jane Public” understands the Green message, while you, and other “right-wing” males seem to be slower on the uptake … but keep on trying!
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>>“Jane Public? understands
I know a few of them. Without exception, they have no understanding of the polices for which they’re voting.
It just “feels” right
Quite fashionable down Thordon way.
Organic nappies. Recycling. Then into the 4WD for a spin down to Lampton Quay to load up on baby clothes. Made in the UK.
Oh yah, darling.
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PEL:
I find your post arrogant and offensive.
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eredwen Says:
January 21st, 2007 at 10:19 pm
jh:
Firstly:
If you regard Al Gore as part of the “far left?, that would put your position “further right than Atilla the Hun?? Wow!!
_________________
Actually I meant that it is Al Gores movie, (hightend awareness of global warming), that is ecouraging people to support the Green label. I never meant to imply Al Gore was part of the far left.
=========================
Secondly:
You haven’t yet managed to grasp the concept of “Green?, which IS a different dimension. (It has been in use for over thirty years, since the Values Party was formed in the early 1970’s … but do keep on trying !)
———————————————–
Yes I must admit it is confusing as “Green”, and “Values” conjure relatively clear ideas. The problem lies when people appear to be able to see things in the entrails of the Green Charter, that justify, whatever the far-left politicians want done.
=====================================
Thirdly:
Don’t be too sure about “Jo Public? .
I live in a now affluent suburb which has the polling booth with the highest Green “Party-Vote? in the Electorate. In the same booth the majority of “Candidate-Votes? favour the National candidate.
——————————————————–
People who vote or don’t vote Green, do so for various reasons;
Some just want to send a message; for example: “remember the environment”. While environmental concerns have broad appeal the type of thinking of the people on the far-left puts a lot of people off.
======================
JH
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I’m with JH on this one. As a Green Charter supporter, I’m unable to vote for the Greens as the radical left have taken over the party.
Blue-Green for me it is. The problem for the Greens is those rich Green “Party Voters” have an alternative now.
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ciao
I wouldn’t put too much faith in the Blue/Greens. Until fairly recently I had been a National party member for most of my life but their performance at the last election over the Green Party put me off totally. The blue/green is just that, just a covering of paint and they are not at all serious about green issues. Take a close look at the policies. Look at what they plan for water as an example – tradable rights is tantamount to privatisation of water. I sent a critique of their policies to Nick Smith and had no response. The Green Party is a bit too far left for me too but we need them there.
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Agreed Narena, Early days yet, lets see how it pans out in the run up to the next election.
The tradeable water example is an interesting debating point on who owns the “resource rights” to the water. Similarly who owns the “resource rights” of anything (as opposed to “property rights” which are completely different).
Fisheries have resource quotas (to keep the fisheries sustainable) which are bought and sold. I guess you can lump water (as in fresh) in there as well?
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eredwen
I had to laugh, you suggest (demand) that anybody who does not “get” the green message is slow yet seem so easily offended when we suggest that the greens have a hidden agenda.
Like Peter there is much about the greens I like, however I also could never vote for them while they insist on pushing the anti American far left agenda.
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JH, Gerrit
I accept that you’re not comfortable with the liberal leanings of some of us. The fly in the ointment here is that there’s desperately little balance or progress elsewhere. Labour and its current partners have done damned little, National has repeatedly promised to do less. I have no faith in a mob that lies about me and my views to the extent that has been done.
Which is part of the problem. Greens are not as far left as it is painted by the folk who perceive it as threat.
It IS basically a liberal organization though. This follows from some of the basic values it starts with and the fact that there is a connection between the limits to growth required by green sustainability and the opposition to corporations (and their excesses) that underpins much of the rest of the left wing. There are some subtle differences, but the overlap is large, as you both observe.
The problem is that you are not reconciling the sustainability requirement against the pro-growth mindset required by Capitalism as practiced in most of the world. Not because you don’t want to but because it cannot be reconciled.
Capitalism in an environment of fiat currencies and central banks interventions to create ever increasing amounts of money, employing ever increasing numbers of people to produce ever increasing amounts of stuff… and needing governments to destroy it as fast as possible so that everyone can be employed producing it…. The economics are perverse at best and over the long term, destructive. Capitalism CAN work, but some of the things I mention here have to stop, and the people who control them are unlikely volunteers when it comes to relinquishing their power.
My problem is that I can’t trust National. I may forgive my enemies but I never forget them. Labour dismays and disgusts me, except as an alternative to the Nats. The others parties are personality parties. Peters and Peter and Rodney. This one is more honestly democratic. A point of difference that we need to make clear in the next election.
Since I AM a liberal this is not a bad place for me. I don’t argue a lot with my compatriots here… usually it is methods and tactics rather than aim.
I don’t want to cause trouble. I want to change the way things work.
respectfully
BJ
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BB
I haven’t noticed that the Greens have anything against Americans.
I have noticed that the current US Administration has plenty against Green Principles…. and has injured a lot more Americans and damaged more American principles than Osama bin Forgotten ever dreamt of doing.
As for offending us. To suggest that we have a hidden agenda is patently offensive. You know that. Yank my chain some more why doncha
More pointedly, What part of what we do or want to do, is hidden?
respectfully
BJ
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BJ,
You are a patient, intelligent, erudite, even-tempered, articulate bloody legend.
Are you really a Yank?
Much respect,
Smokey
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Excellent summation BJ, and the truth is I can reconsile the way capitalism should (repeat should) work, but has been hijacked not just by corporates but governments (and government agencies) acting as corporates.
For example – Have a rental house which is rented by a solo mum and two kids on the DPB. Very nice people who pay regular and have been there over 5 years now.
Over Christmas, WINZ cancels her DPB for two weeks, simply doesn’t pay it. When my tenant goes to WINZ (the notorious Manurewa branch) the attitude is “so what’ and your case manager is on holiday so we cant do anything (this not being the first time this has happened).
Persistantly she goes back to apply for an emergency benefit, to feed the children, with no luck, finally resorting to getting a food parcel from the Salvation Army.
Meanwhile her bills dont get paid and she incurs penalties from her Bank (Kiwi Bank) for automatic payment not being made. Very stressful for her at a festive time of year.
The reason her DPB was stopped? No reason given but the street talk is about case managers being on bonuses to pay out as little of a persons entitlements as possible, and to make bonus they will simply cut a benefit.
Instead of WINZ being a caring organistion off the people – by the people – for the people they are a corporate, paying bonusses to staff for “saving money” (or underpaying entitlements).
Another example ever tried dealing with Kiwi Bank? You dont talk to the counter staff about issues you may have but to an impersonal call centre who do very little and know not much more. Again not a helpful and efficient government corporate.
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eredwen,
Perhaps, but it doesn’t make it any less true. I know these people, and attended a BBQ with a few of them just this past weekend.
While there are many voters of any party that know the policies, and the consequences of those policies, there are many voters who do not.
The Green Party are not exempt.
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“The problem is that you are not reconciling the sustainability requirement against the pro-growth mindset required by Capitalism as practiced in most of the world”
Yes, although I think New Zealand has a *lot* of headroom for future development. In fact, it’s almost a necessity, unless we’re to fade away.
I’m passionate about the environment. But I can’t vote Green because of the anti-capitalist agenda.
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Gerrit, that is a terrible story, but has nothing to do with capitalism.
What you describe is an inherit problem with bureaucracy. They have no reason to treat their clients as “customers” and their motivations are obviously geared at managing their figures, not providing good and humane service. This is one of the reasons I am against big government.
On the other issue, I’m with PeterExitsLeft. Sustainability and Environmentalism is important, and so is capitalism. Therefore, I am in agreement with many of the Greens environmental aims, but rarely the means.
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Gerrit
“Instead of WINZ being a caring organistion off the people – by the people – for the people they are a corporate, paying bonuses to staff for “saving money? (or underpaying entitlements).
Another example ever tried dealing with Kiwi Bank? You don’t talk to the counter staff about issues you may have but to an impersonal call center who do very little and know not much more. Again not a helpful and efficient government corporate. ”
I guess these two paragraphs sum up what many of us with Green sympathies worry about.
I want Winz to save money, those “entitlements” come from money stolen from me on a weekly basis, the benefit should NEVER be something that people can be comfortable on (save for the few genuine cases)
Welfare dependency is at epidemic proportions in New Zealand, it was originally intended to be a hand up not a hand out, it annoys me greatly to hear these people (and their sympathizers) talk about “entitlements”, they are entitled to go out and get a bloody job, they are entitled to stop bludgeing from the rest of us who work 40-65 hours per week.
If the Greens really want my party vote (and they could have it) then they should stick to GREEN issues, i accept that SOME areas of our life might have to change BUT i do not want to see Green issues hijacked or used as a Trojan horse for the (hidden) hard left socialist agenda.
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Eredwen, you said earlier: Do you ever try to “put yourself into another’s shoes? to find out why they think as they do?
and you said on the previous post:
I would regard anyone who doesn’t “hate? the behaviour of the current American Administration, in regard to the Middle East in particular, as either ignorant of the facts … or lacking in intelligence or “humanity?.
I’m considered intelligent by those that know me, I read widely and I try to live my life with compassion and consideration for others. Even with the article you posted previously, there are many “facts” that are qualitative, and many other “facts” that were disregarded, thus leading to a different set of shoes you may not have considered.
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yes zen..but you have this strange ‘disconnect’..when you view your particular hobby horses..
namely..being one of the few still pimping the war for bush..
and being one of the rapidly diminishing number who think climate-change/global warming is a ‘green/leftie-con-job’..
and one who believes in ‘survival of the fittest’..
as in ‘widows and orphans to the gutter’..eh..?
and having your particularly warped worldview zen..of course does not mean you don’t view yourself the way you say you do…
there have been many examples thgrough history of people thinking as you do..and being kind to their children/families..and loving their dogs..etc
but there is just that ‘disconnect’..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Sorry Phil, based on your numerous “debates” with me, as well as some of the above assertions, you don’t have a good grasp of what I believe, and you’d have a lesser grasp on how I’ve lived my life. You tend to tell people what you think they believe, and then mis-characterize much of that.
There have also been examples through history of all sorts of things, either way. That’s not a good basis for your deductions at this point.
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Great thread…
Just to tie a few things together.
With respect to the Waihopai protest, the usual suspects jump on the Greens for being “far left” and “anti-American” because they object to NZ participating in the USA’s global signals interception network.
Just to recall : the Americans intercept and analyze absolutely everything that is transmitted, by radio, satellite, internet, whatever. They run it through computers and extract anything that looks “interesting” to them.
So, what is “interesting”? These days, they tell us that they need to do this to combat terrorism. In the good old days, they told us they needed to do it to combat communism. In truth, they do it for their own national advantage, which doesn’t exclude the possibility that it also might be beneficial to NZ, but that’s not the aim… and apparently most of the “interesting” info they extract is of an economic or commercial nature, i.e. to favour US companies, industries and interests.
Now, this is perhaps the heart of the accusations that “the left” and “the Greens” are “anti-American”. If any other nation had that sort of dominant position, and abused it as woefully as the current US administration does, then I would oppose them. Quite likely, in fifty years’ time, the “leftists” and “the Greens” will be accused of being “anti-Chinese” (because they will be the dominant power), by the likes of Big Bro, Tigger, jh and co.
It’s one of the characteristics of Greenness : a strong libertarian streak, and a refusal to be dominated. That’s one of the major political divisions : there are those who prefer to suck up to the dominant and powerful, and those who prefer to resist them.
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Eredwen
You said:
1 The “intelligence? gathered and sent through these Bases does not have to be revealed to the New Zealand Government. Therefore they/we have no “checks and balances?, no chance to question or correct misinformation (often involving our own region of the world.)
The New Zealand High Commission in Washington DC does not need to submit all information they collect or gather, to the USA for them to decide if the information is accurate or not. What makes you think the information is always “misinformation”? What makes you think the USA wouldn’t reveal any relevant information if we have a good working relationship between intelligence agencies? Why is it more important to not gather information, and assess it on its merits, rather than risk misinformation?
2. Anyone who currently follows world affairs (from sources different than those used by Fox News et al) will realise that under the current Administation in the USA, there are heavy doses of dis-information in mainstream media (which unfortunately permiate through into our media).
What has this got to do with the USA government needing to gather intelligence on the activities of other countries, or organisations that may prove a threat to its security and that of its people?
The current craze of “bring people to justice? etc is a good example to think about. Apart from the imorality of the “process?, it would not be “a good look? for Aotearoa/NZ to be any part of handing on misinformation … and we just don’t know if we are!!
It’s the USA performing intelligence gathering, not us handing it on. It’s information, not necessarily misinformation.
If you disagree, there are many well informed Americans who are very concerned about what is going on, and I strongly suggest that you revise, or add to, your list of sources of information. (Just ask on this blog and you’ll get some excellent and interesting suggestions for you to try!)
Is it safe to assume you would like NZ to be “neutral” in world affairs, and not support any country in any intelligence gathering, let alone other activities?
Do you support NZ in terms of having a capacity for its own intelligence gathering? Should we share information to broaden our reach? Intell on the next Bali Bombings for example?
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One of societies problems is the way the media deal with complex issues; for instance tonight we have the bad news on housing affordability. Hugh Pavlovich gets to say his piece over and over about how it is councils fault not opening up land on the outskirts. I never once heard it mentioned that 50,000? new residents arrive each year and the average Kiwi can’t compete with people who sell their house in London (4/5 of coastal land that comes available is sold to foriegners). The marketing function of the Tv stations takes precedence over any public service role.
There’s a bit of discussion re the Greens and property development on Rodney Hides Blog : “Rodders Loves Hendo”
http://www.rodneyhide.com/index.php/weblog/comments/look_what_i_started/
JH
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JH
You do NOT want me starting on housing here
No way. Suffice it that Rodney has some good points and that I’ve had more than enough to say about Dr Cullen and his mishandling of the economy.
I am purposely squelching my wrath, cause it’s late and I could write all night on that one.
respectfully
BJ
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Interesting problem with Kiwibank. I have had issues with a paycheck once, but never an issue with handling it. The people I talked with helped me sort it out without great pain. Seemed perfectly OK… but you have to be ready to talk with them on the phone.
I think this is one of those YMMV issues. I have used Kiwibank since I got here and I have not regretted the choice.
respectfully
BJ
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so zen..i’ve got you all wrong ..have i..?
so..you aren’t a war-pimping/climate-change denying/’widows and orphans to the gutter’ sorta guy..?..eh..?
who knew..?…eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I was looking into the Waihopai functions, and it is managed by NZ (GCSB):
GCSB
Is anyone able to explain to me the reasoning behind the statement that this is being controlled by the USA and that we see nothing of the information we gather?
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Ironic that Nickey Hagar was there amongst the 60 “usual suspects”. He knows a lot about snooping and presenting unbalanced conclusions*
[only one party had their hard-drive raided-- or> we all have skeletons in the closet] (o^ )o
JH
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We all have skeletons in our closets? Speak for yourself, jh.
I don’t think there are any best-sellers to be written about the Green Party’s secrets, actually.
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but what about that time….?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Why is information gathering and sharing with our allies an overwhelmingly bad thing?
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Tigger, Peter :
I think you’ll find that the NZ GCSB hands over the raw data (i.e. the signals they snoop on) to the Americans… who run it through their computers to extract information from it, and give back to NZ anything they feel like giving back.
I’d be surprised if they gave our people direct access to the hardware and software they use to extract the interesting bits out of the vast mass of noise.
So it’s not a matter of NZ gathering and sharing information with the USA, but of NZ providing a technical service.
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At this late stage of the discussion:
Locals to join in are thin on the ground for a few weeks, tho.
YAY Russ, & Keith, for keeping the green flag flying at Waihopai. Happy to sort out a little rendez-vous chez-embassy, just call me…. my fav protest venue.
On the subject of GCSB: NZ contractors have worked on hardware & software solutions for them, and still do, in order that there is systems compatibility with the bits the USA wants to share.
On Nicky Hagar: He has stated many times, he was approached by factions within the National MP’s, who spoke to him willingly, out of concern for their party’s future. No hacking required, just the archaic but predictable knifing in the back that goes on in the politics of intergenerational succession.
Eredwen: you & me both, I’d like to just drop everything/one I’m responsible for & go camping, maybe next year
cheers, katie
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Russel – normally I regard the Green Party as a voice of reason and sanity in Parliament and society generally, but the reverse appears to be the case when it comes to matters of foreign affairs, defence and, in particular, intelligence.
As several of your readers have noted, any country, but particularly a small country like NZ, needs good intelligence gathering and analysis capabilities – primarily to find out about potential threats well in advance of those occurring. This is all the more so in a time when many actual and potential threats exist – Islamic terrorism, Chinese resurgence, and organized crime in the South Pacific, to name a few.
If the price of having good intelligence is some cooperation with the US, then this is a price that we should be prepared to pay.
Peter
http://www.kotare.typepad.com/thestrategist
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Hi Peter
My post yesterday got eaten by the frog (or was that a kingfisher) so I’ll try again! My concern is that the intelligence collected at Waihopai is being used to assist the US with their war for oil in Iraq. That war has cost literally hundreds of thousands of lives and is ethically untenable (as well as illegal under international law as it had no UN mandate). So I think the price is too high to pay.
I also believe that we have taken the wrong track in the Middle East if we wish to promote the values of equality and democracy (and hence fundamentally undermine fundamentalist terrorism). When the UK and the US instigated the overthrow the democratically elected Mossadegh government of Iran in 1953 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaddeq) we went down (or continued down) a path of suppressing the democratic forces who in the long run could be allies of the good parts of the Enlightenment. The west backed dictators like Saddam. The secular democratic resistance to the west was ultimately destroyed and the religous resistance came to the fore. The whirlwind that is the rise of islamic fundamentalism and terrorism is in many ways a result of our long history of intervention and western suppression of democracy.
Rather than waging a war of terror we would do better to seek engagement and support democracy. For example I believe that there is currently tremendous opportunity to engage with Iranian supporters of democracy and a less fundamentalist government in Iran. They have experienced the theocracy first hand. But it is next to impossible while the US is threatening their country and the theocratic leadership can rally people around the nation’s survival (remember that Iraq invaded Iran with US support in 1980).
Russel
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Off topic maybe, but I can’t let these comments go without a reply:
Gerrit Says:
January 22nd, 2007 at 10:38 am
Meanwhile her bills dont get paid and she incurs penalties from her Bank (Kiwi Bank) for automatic payment not being made. Very stressful for her at a festive time of year.
and
big bruv Responds:
January 22nd, 2007 at 7:20 pm
“Instead of WINZ being a caring organistion off the people – by the people – for the people they are a corporate, paying bonuses to staff for “saving money? (or underpaying entitlements).”
… and …
“Another example ever tried dealing with Kiwi Bank? You don’t talk to the counter staff about issues you may have but to an impersonal call center who do very little and know not much more. Again not a helpful and efficient government corporate. ?
Well, I have had experience of the DPB on two occasions when my children were young (as a “top up” for a sometimes inadequate income for variable part time work). I found the staff excellent and helpful, but I agree that for complex cases, less articulate/assertive beneficiaries might sometimes need an advocate … so good on you Gerrit!
Interesting that you both found it necessary(?) to mention kiwibank in a negative light! (I wonder if you would have for any other bank?)
I am a VERY SATISFIED customer of kiwibank.
(After mixed experiences with various major banks over many years and in several countries I decided to “make the move” and now I would rate kiwibank “right up there”!) The excellent advice, the absolute efficiency and speed of the transfer of a set of complicated accounts, including a motgage, was painless and showed the strength of their system, their careful use of technology, and deployment of staff.
I find the Call Centres excellent, and have been transfered to an expert (usually THE expert) immediatelyin the required area.
I would follow the cheeky-little-green-car anyday!
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If I remember rightly, Kiwibank was rated highly by Consumer.
JH
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# PeterExitsLeft Says:
January 23rd, 2007 at 8:13 pm
>Why is information gathering and sharing with our allies an overwhelmingly bad thing?
It’s not a bad thing if the government in question deserves to be our ally. However, it seems to me that all the dodgy things the current US government has got up to mean that they should not be considered our ally. And officially they’re not our ally, and haven’t been for most of my life.
If they’re not our ally, and with their current policies they shouldn’t be, then we certainly shouldn’t be helping their intelligence gathering. Even if the intelligence isn’t being used to further any of the US government’s dodgier policy aims (and I doubt that) , pulling out of the echelon spy network is one of the few ways New Zealand can protest against US foreign policy in a way that the US government actually cares about.
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Russel Says:
January 25th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
I also believe that we have taken the wrong track in the Middle East if we wish to promote the values of equality and democracy (and hence fundamentally undermine fundamentalist terrorism).
——————-
I think it’s time to stop refering to Maori as Tangata Whenua and accept that we have occupied the old place long enough to be Tangata Whenua.
JH
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I think during the cold war the Americans had the moral high ground: as Kennedy said “we don’t need walls to keep our people in!” Middle East policies seem to have been self serving, however.
With awareness of peak oil, wasteful consumerism (Hummers), the Americans are moving way down the ladder, (although the Democrats seem to be moving in the right direction).
JH
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Kieth Locke: if you want to beat Rodney Hide leave the Middle East etc to interest groups and concentrate on local issues such as the woman in Ely Street (Chch) who had a wall built down the side(?) of her historic workers cottage.
Stay out of the Union movement.
JH
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