Comments on: How will the Greens do in the US midterm elections? http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/ hopping along the corridors of power Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:39:08 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: eredwen http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18798 eredwen Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:56:33 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18798 big bruv: It seems that the problem you and I have, in communicating on these "issues" of yours, is that you must have accepted inaccurate information as fact. I do, however, recognise and understand your point of view on both topics, and at that level we may agree to differ. It is important to recognise that when a Green MP speaks on matters of policy they have the backing of their Parliamentary Caucus and Staff and of the Green Party. We are a very democratic lot! I suspect that your reaction to Sue's "anti-smacking" Bill is a personal one. It is the bigger picture of serious child abuse in Aotearoa/NZ that is in urgent need of attention, and this Bill seeks to address that. All of this has been debated elsewhere, and further comment from me would be "redundant" at best ... except to say that you do your argument and yourself no credit by continuing to abuse one of our Green MPs. eredwen

big bruv:

It seems that the problem you and I have, in communicating on these “issues” of yours, is that you must have accepted inaccurate information as fact.

I do, however, recognise and understand your point of view on both topics, and at that level we may agree to differ.

It is important to recognise that when a Green MP speaks on matters of policy they have the backing of their Parliamentary Caucus and Staff and of the Green Party. We are a very democratic lot!

I suspect that your reaction to Sue’s “anti-smacking” Bill is a personal one. It is the bigger picture of serious child abuse in Aotearoa/NZ that is in urgent need of attention, and this Bill seeks to address that.

All of this has been debated elsewhere, and further comment from me would be “redundant” at best … except to say that you do your argument and yourself no credit by continuing to abuse one of our Green MPs.

eredwen

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]]> By: andrew http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18786 andrew Tue, 14 Nov 2006 05:13:37 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18786 it's not zaoui's fault that his case is costing new zealand taxpayers. if the government had simply been content to accept the ruling of the refugee status authority, he would have settled in years ago & be a productive citizen. instead the government has hounded him through the courts, at great cost for both prosecution & defence. as for his having been assured of safety, i'm sure a spider would give a fly assurances of safety too if that would get the fly into its net. it's bizarre to trust some 3rd world dictatorship on their word but not to trust our judicial authorities.

it’s not zaoui’s fault that his case is costing new zealand taxpayers.
if the government had simply been content to accept the ruling of the refugee status authority, he would have settled in years ago & be a productive citizen.
instead the government has hounded him through the courts, at great cost for both prosecution & defence.
as for his having been assured of safety, i’m sure a spider would give a fly assurances of safety too if that would get the fly into its net.
it’s bizarre to trust some 3rd world dictatorship on their word but not to trust our judicial authorities.

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]]> By: big bruv http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18769 big bruv Tue, 14 Nov 2006 01:41:42 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18769

eredwen Says:

November 11th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
big bruv says:

1. “Given that he (Ahmed Zaoui) has been labeled a terrorist that is good enough for me, I repeat that he is not a NZer and therefore he is not our problem …�

and

2. “I note that nobody has refuted the claim about Bradford telling blatant lies.�

eredwen replies:

big bruv, in an earlier post I noticed that you said positive things about this blog, along the lines that on it there was not the usual negative put downs aggression etc …

frogblog IS different in this regard, and the contributors are different. Many of your recent posts appear to be more mindful of these differences … a case of “When in Rome, do as the Romans do�?
BUT not today it seems!

My responses to the two quotes above:

1. There is ample info on Ahmed Zaoui on the Green Website (www.greens.org.nz) that clearly shows that the “terrorist� label is inaccurate.
Also, Aotearoa/New Zealand has (international) obligations to asylum seekers and, for that reason alone, sending Ahmed Zaoui “home� is NOT an option for a country that takes its (international) responsibilities seriously.

2. I would suspect that your “bating� about Sue Bradford has been regarded as ignorant, purile and repetitive, and as such it has been ignored. (Certainly, that was my reaction!)

IF you really want it to be taken seriously and seen as more than that (perhaps as slander, or libel) … what would THAT say about your judgement?

Your current report card … “Could do better�

Eredwen

I have said positive things about this Blog and I still believe those things to be true, however this does not mean that I will blindly accept things that I BELIEVE to be wrong.
In MY opinion Zaoui is a bludger who has eaten up far to much of my tax dollars already, the man should be sent home (where he has been assured of his safety)
New Zealand only has obligations to its own people, we have more than enough problems and major issues facing us in this country without importing any from off shore.

The Bradford issue is similar, she has constantly told lies about the child smacking debate, and seeks to impose her morals and values on the rest of society irrespective of their own values and morals.
Indeed the link i provided has proof of this, my post was not intended to “bait” anybody, it is the truth and something that i would have thought more here would have commented on.

P.S….My report card was returned with the comment “better to think and ask questions than to be fed blatant lies and accept them.

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]]> By: tetranz http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18743 tetranz Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:17:32 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18743 "with a 4×2" 100x50 in the modern world. :-)

“with a 4×2″

100×50 in the modern world. :-)

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]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18742 bjchip Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:09:51 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18742 Stuey - It is possible that they've learned something. I don't have a "current" axe to grind with them as someone here said that this "independent green" in VA was actually a separate party... not the US GP, and I haven't been a VA resident in 30 years. I hope they have learned something. Certainly those that see the way it works here are likely to change their minds about the relative importance of ballot reform vs party visibility. It does take a whack between the eyes with a 4x2 for some of us Yanks to see clearly. Not that I've ever needed one of course :-) For me it usually involves a 4x4. :-) BJ respectfully BJ

Stuey – It is possible that they’ve learned something. I don’t have a “current” axe to grind with them as someone here said that this “independent green” in VA was actually a separate party… not the US GP, and I haven’t been a VA resident in 30 years. I hope they have learned something.

Certainly those that see the way it works here are likely to change their minds about the relative importance of ballot reform vs party visibility. It does take a whack between the eyes with a 4×2 for some of us Yanks to see clearly. Not that I’ve ever needed one of course :-)

For me it usually involves a 4×4. :-)

BJ

respectfully
BJ

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]]> By: stuey http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18736 stuey Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:25:24 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18736 BJ I agree that "This is something that has to be done by state organizations and in state legislatures. It has to happen by referendum, it has to be promoted to a ballot issue" and I believe that the US Greens are doing this. phil, the US Green Party worker that worked for us in 2001-3 who you refer to is now working on exactly that (although not for the GP) - she is now a co-ordinator for a well-funded non-partisan electoral reform organisation based in LA that is promoting IRV in ballot iniatives at local levels.

BJ I agree that “This is something that has to be done by state organizations and in state legislatures. It has to happen by referendum, it has to be promoted to a ballot issue” and I believe that the US Greens are doing this.

phil, the US Green Party worker that worked for us in 2001-3 who you refer to is now working on exactly that (although not for the GP) – she is now a co-ordinator for a well-funded non-partisan electoral reform organisation based in LA that is promoting IRV in ballot iniatives at local levels.

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]]> By: andrew http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18727 andrew Mon, 13 Nov 2006 10:18:03 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18727 also worth noting is that the republicans have been losing support amongst fundamentalist christians over the last two elections. this time around, most catholics voted for the democrats.

also worth noting is that the republicans have been losing support amongst fundamentalist christians over the last two elections. this time around, most catholics voted for the democrats.

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]]> By: andrew http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18726 andrew Mon, 13 Nov 2006 10:16:40 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18726 yep. we like proportional representation because it allows people of different goals & beliefs to achieve representation in proportion to their numbers. we can't say proportional representation for everyone except those we don't like. it's exactly the argument that is used against the entire concept of proportional representation.

yep. we like proportional representation because it allows people of different goals & beliefs to achieve representation in proportion to their numbers.
we can’t say proportional representation for everyone except those we don’t like.
it’s exactly the argument that is used against the entire concept of proportional representation.

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]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18725 bjchip Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:53:45 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18725 Eredwen If a radical evangelical group manages to get represented because we are trying to represent minority parties and they manage to get the votes, then they do. I only want people to get a fair chance to vote for causes and candidates they favor... I cannot and will not compromise their right to vote for causes or candidates I regard as idiots. In other words - so be it. I already voted with my feet, and folks who are like that have a harder time sinking roots into a well educated and literate society. respectfully BJ

Eredwen

If a radical evangelical group manages to get represented because we are trying to represent minority parties and they manage to get the votes, then they do. I only want people to get a fair chance to vote for causes and candidates they favor… I cannot and will not compromise their right to vote for causes or candidates I regard as idiots.

In other words – so be it. I already voted with my feet, and folks who are like that have a harder time sinking roots into a well educated and literate society.

respectfully
BJ

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]]> By: andrew http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18715 andrew Mon, 13 Nov 2006 07:59:43 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18715 if it's true that in the usa a party can name anyone as their candidate, including someone standing for another party, (can't quite see how they can work this given the primary system, but assuming the truth of what bjchip said), then this is too powerful a tool for third parties to overlook. it totally liberates voters to vote for third parties knowing their vote is not wasted. then, once their votes put them into the major-party category, they can stand candidates of their own. i wouldn't assume libertarians are otherwise-would-be-republican voters by the way - they hate the military-imperial state & the fiscal irresponsibility as much as any green does. i think people in the usa voting for one of these third parties has already despaired & is voting in a way to give themselves a nice warm feeling of being "above the fray" rather than to affect the outcome. but the stakes are too high - with all the "last chance for the world" and "may be too late already" views of global warming, the greens need to stop playing this game. building up support over 20 years is not good enough. if the greens and libertarians are already supporting electoral reform, how come we don't hear of the petitions and referenda? i suspect they aren't doing much at all. as for our own version of proportional representation, i opposed it at the time. our MMP model is a distinctly second-best option, and i knew that once it was in, the chance of further change for a better option would be dim, but if MMP were defeated the pressure would be kept up for change (hopefully a better one). i have similar objections to MMP that big bruv has, plus i resented the way MMP was thrust to the fore as an option. but now we have MMP, there's no way i would go back to SMP. what we have is far from perfect but is 100 times better than SMP. despite my objections about the possibility of further change, there is one change which we could make which would be small enough to cause no disruption or misunderstanding & which no-one could possibly oppose, but which would cause a small improvement in MMP: namely allow the voters to tick not only the party list they prefer, but their favourite candidate on that list. if a party wins say 50 list seats, that may include not the first 50 from the top of the list as ordered by the party, but instead perhaps #51, #67, maybe even #120 depending how much support each of them had from the voters for their party. yes it's likely that most voters will just vote for one of the big name candidates at the top of the list, but there is some small chance there for the voter to excersize greater power. the constitution of the USA & its states does indeed allow ordinary people to campaign at the local level for national & local electoral reform - but for pity's sake don't go confusing them with bizarre electoral systems. preferential or instant-runoff voting pretty much solves the problems. it liberates people to vote for whoever they want - and this will sometimes mean a third-party candidate wins. (with so many voters currently choosing the lesser of two evils, how many of them will still keep voting for democrat or republican once they no longer have to?) occasionally in history, third parties become major parties, SMP works to retard this possibility while PV does not. approval voting is just like preferential voting but without the benefit of ranking the candidates. it would genuinely be little better than SMP since everyone will have to include a major party in their slate of approved candidates in order to avoid wasting their vote, but those who actually prefer a major-party candidate will not necessarily have to approve of anyone else. range voting is similar to PV (preferential voting) i.e. instant runoff, except that there is no need for successive rounds of ballot counting with vote reassignment & candidate elimination. it has the disadvantage though that negative preferences count as much as positive preferences. while ordinary PV is likely to return (a) candidate(s) who is/are acceptable to the greatest number of people, RV would instead return the candidate(s) least unacceptable. (& in fact the result would also be almost random). but if you have trouble telling your american friends about preferential voting, just tell them it's a bit like football rankings. you see they understand it perfectly fine when it's about football, something they are switched on to, & not politics. i can't remember which competition it is which uses a PV-style method of ranking the teams, but i can find out for you.

if it’s true that in the usa a party can name anyone as their candidate, including someone standing for another party, (can’t quite see how they can work this given the primary system, but assuming the truth of what bjchip said), then this is too powerful a tool for third parties to overlook.
it totally liberates voters to vote for third parties knowing their vote is not wasted. then, once their votes put them into the major-party category, they can stand candidates of their own.
i wouldn’t assume libertarians are otherwise-would-be-republican voters by the way – they hate the military-imperial state & the fiscal irresponsibility as much as any green does. i think people in the usa voting for one of these third parties has already despaired & is voting in a way to give themselves a nice warm feeling of being “above the fray” rather than to affect the outcome.
but the stakes are too high – with all the “last chance for the world” and “may be too late already” views of global warming, the greens need to stop playing this game. building up support over 20 years is not good enough.

if the greens and libertarians are already supporting electoral reform, how come we don’t hear of the petitions and referenda? i suspect they aren’t doing much at all.

as for our own version of proportional representation, i opposed it at the time. our MMP model is a distinctly second-best option, and i knew that once it was in, the chance of further change for a better option would be dim, but if MMP were defeated the pressure would be kept up for change (hopefully a better one). i have similar objections to MMP that big bruv has, plus i resented the way MMP was thrust to the fore as an option.
but now we have MMP, there’s no way i would go back to SMP. what we have is far from perfect but is 100 times better than SMP.
despite my objections about the possibility of further change, there is one change which we could make which would be small enough to cause no disruption or misunderstanding & which no-one could possibly oppose, but which would cause a small improvement in MMP: namely allow the voters to tick not only the party list they prefer, but their favourite candidate on that list. if a party wins say 50 list seats, that may include not the first 50 from the top of the list as ordered by the party, but instead perhaps #51, #67, maybe even #120 depending how much support each of them had from the voters for their party.
yes it’s likely that most voters will just vote for one of the big name candidates at the top of the list, but there is some small chance there for the voter to excersize greater power.

the constitution of the USA & its states does indeed allow ordinary people to campaign at the local level for national & local electoral reform – but for pity’s sake don’t go confusing them with bizarre electoral systems. preferential or instant-runoff voting pretty much solves the problems. it liberates people to vote for whoever they want – and this will sometimes mean a third-party candidate wins. (with so many voters currently choosing the lesser of two evils, how many of them will still keep voting for democrat or republican once they no longer have to?) occasionally in history, third parties become major parties, SMP works to retard this possibility while PV does not.
approval voting is just like preferential voting but without the benefit of ranking the candidates. it would genuinely be little better than SMP since everyone will have to include a major party in their slate of approved candidates in order to avoid wasting their vote, but those who actually prefer a major-party candidate will not necessarily have to approve of anyone else.
range voting is similar to PV (preferential voting) i.e. instant runoff, except that there is no need for successive rounds of ballot counting with vote reassignment & candidate elimination. it has the disadvantage though that negative preferences count as much as positive preferences. while ordinary PV is likely to return (a) candidate(s) who is/are acceptable to the greatest number of people, RV would instead return the candidate(s) least unacceptable.
(& in fact the result would also be almost random).

but if you have trouble telling your american friends about preferential voting, just tell them it’s a bit like football rankings. you see they understand it perfectly fine when it’s about football, something they are switched on to, & not politics.
i can’t remember which competition it is which uses a PV-style method of ranking the teams, but i can find out for you.

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]]> By: Prim http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18714 Prim Mon, 13 Nov 2006 07:34:51 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18714 eredwen - I think that your 4.01 posting is actually in agreement with one of the points which I made earlier: that an "extreme" group would probably not get so many votes. I think that this would be true in the US as well as NZ; if not true in the US, it may well be best for such issues to be addressed via democracy rather than left to take another course. Was not sure what your 11.00 posting meant by "nutters"; in general I do not like such labels. I see that the sensible Dr Dunny Brush has previously commented on the "Rapture". I am sure that he and his helpers will be able to flush out some more of these issues.

eredwen -

I think that your 4.01 posting is actually in agreement with one of the points which I made earlier: that an “extreme” group would probably not get so many votes. I think that this would be true in the US as well as NZ; if not true in the US, it may well be best for such issues to be addressed via democracy rather than left to take another course.

Was not sure what your 11.00 posting meant by “nutters”; in general I do not like such labels. I see that the sensible Dr Dunny Brush has previously commented on the “Rapture”. I am sure that he and his helpers will be able to flush out some more of these issues.

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]]> By: eredwen http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18705 eredwen Mon, 13 Nov 2006 03:30:03 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18705 phil said: "one of those american greens worked here.. like those greens b.j. referred to she had a total blindspot ... so..i’m not sure advice from here will be heeded.. I'd agree with that ! American kids seem to be taught to be very proud of their "Democracy". It follows that they see their system as "THE TRUE SYSTEM", (so what could they possibly learn from others?)

phil said:

“one of those american greens worked here..
like those greens b.j. referred to she had a total blindspot …
so..i’m not sure advice from here will be heeded..

I’d agree with that !

American kids seem to be taught to be very proud of their “Democracy”. It follows that they see their system as “THE TRUE SYSTEM”, (so what could they possibly learn from others?)

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]]> By: eredwen http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18704 eredwen Mon, 13 Nov 2006 03:01:16 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18704 prim: My post obviously seemed over-critical to you ... However, when writing it, I was thinking about those Americans who are reported as holding "extreme beliefs" ... For example, those seeking "Rapture" (which, if it comes to pass, will see me and most that I associate with left behind on Earth ... provided that we are spared the (also predicted ) fire and brimstone / weeping and gnashing of teeth. Forgive me if my assumption that such things would not be "vote catching" in Aotearoa/NZ offends!

prim:

My post obviously seemed over-critical to you …

However, when writing it, I was thinking about those Americans who are reported as holding “extreme beliefs” … For example, those seeking “Rapture” (which, if it comes to pass, will see me and most that I associate with left behind on Earth … provided that we are spared the (also predicted ) fire and brimstone / weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Forgive me if my assumption that such things would not be “vote catching” in Aotearoa/NZ offends!

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]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18703 bjchip Mon, 13 Nov 2006 02:53:13 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18703 <i>don’t think that anyone within the US Green Party believes they can ever win under FFP.</i> Depends on whether they run as Democrats or not.... as I pointed out somewhere, the same person may appear on the ballot as a Green and a Democrat and a Libertarian if they all agree that he/she is the best person to run (however unlikely it sounds, politics makes strange bedfellows)... so they can win some isolated seats. However, no amount of "visibility" will help them make this change... indeed it has to be done invisibly... because the major parties will fight tooth and nail to retain the advantage that FPP gives THEM at the polls... if they see it happening. This is something that has to be done by state organizations and in state legislatures. It has to happen by referendum, it has to be promoted to a ballot issue and people need to be educated to think about being able to vote FOR someone instead of against their worst choice. None of that requires the party to be particularly "visible". It just has to be organized enough and smart enough to quit drawing to an inside straight the way it's done for the past decade. Not to feel TOO bad, the Libertarians do the same, and so did the old liberal party in NYC. This is something that can happen best if the unlikely combination of Green and Libertarian parties both go at it together. People who wouldn't listen to a Green WILL hear out a Libertarian and vice-versa. People who understand the difference between FPP and pretty much any other method, choose any other method. The battle could be won without being fought... but it would take a miracle to get it through at the national level, and it will never go through by Greens "improving their visibility" in this election or that and then campaigning for it. That's the worst strategy of all, because it would call attention to the change being made. Dems and Repugs would rally round the FPP flag. Ditch FPP first... you get all the visibility you could ask, because THEN you start actually winning some seats outright. There's a lot of Democrats and Republicans who hate the candidates on offer, but simply don't want to toss their vote away. Real support for Greens in the US is probably close to 10% and where a particularly bad Dem is fielded, that Dem would be gone. Greens would have to caucus with Dems but the party would get FAR more respect. Same thing for the Libertarians, though they are not predictably going to caucus with anyone AFAIK. respectfully BJ respectfully BJ

don’t think that anyone within the US Green Party believes they can ever win under FFP.

Depends on whether they run as Democrats or not…. as I pointed out somewhere, the same person may appear on the ballot as a Green and a Democrat and a Libertarian if they all agree that he/she is the best person to run (however unlikely it sounds, politics makes strange bedfellows)… so they can win some isolated seats.

However, no amount of “visibility” will help them make this change… indeed it has to be done invisibly… because the major parties will fight tooth and nail to retain the advantage that FPP gives THEM at the polls… if they see it happening. This is something that has to be done by state organizations and in state legislatures. It has to happen by referendum, it has to be promoted to a ballot issue and people need to be educated to think about being able to vote FOR someone instead of against their worst choice.

None of that requires the party to be particularly “visible”. It just has to be organized enough and smart enough to quit drawing to an inside straight the way it’s done for the past decade. Not to feel TOO bad, the Libertarians do the same, and so did the old liberal party in NYC.

This is something that can happen best if the unlikely combination of Green and Libertarian parties both go at it together. People who wouldn’t listen to a Green WILL hear out a Libertarian and vice-versa. People who understand the difference between FPP and pretty much any other method, choose any other method. The battle could be won without being fought… but it would take a miracle to get it through at the national level, and it will never go through by Greens “improving their visibility” in this election or that and then campaigning for it. That’s the worst strategy of all, because it would call attention to the change being made. Dems and Repugs would rally round the FPP flag.

Ditch FPP first… you get all the visibility you could ask, because THEN you start actually winning some seats outright.

There’s a lot of Democrats and Republicans who hate the candidates on offer, but simply don’t want to toss their vote away. Real support for Greens in the US is probably close to 10% and where a particularly bad Dem is fielded, that Dem would be gone. Greens would have to caucus with Dems but the party would get FAR more respect. Same thing for the Libertarians, though they are not predictably going to caucus with anyone AFAIK.

respectfully
BJ

respectfully
BJ

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]]> By: phil u http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18701 phil u Mon, 13 Nov 2006 01:57:54 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18701 eredwen...one of those american greens worked here..mainly in auckland..at the election before last.. like those greens b.j. referred to she had a total blindspot to the fact her and the rest of the (misguided/deluded) american greens gave us monkey-boy president... so..i'm not sure advice from here will be heeded.. they have their group justification/self-delusion they cling to..and thats pretty much that.. (they all must have been away from school that day..eh..?...that day they explained the (not complicated) concept of 'splitting the vote'..) go figure..! just a 'means to an end' eh stuey.. and that end..in this case..just happened to be the tragic reign of monkey-president.. gee stuey..d'ya think those greens might be better advised to either work for electoral reform..or to green the democrat party..?..instead of just splitting the vote..and letting the b*atards in..! if so..ya gotta be feckin' kidding.. btw..stuey..are you still defending their actions..? surely 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' would be the most charitable interpretation of their foolishness..eh..? phil(whoar.co.nz)

eredwen…one of those american greens worked here..mainly in auckland..at the election before last..

like those greens b.j. referred to she had a total blindspot to the fact her and the rest of the (misguided/deluded) american greens gave us monkey-boy president…

so..i’m not sure advice from here will be heeded..

they have their group justification/self-delusion they cling to..and thats pretty much that..

(they all must have been away from school that day..eh..?…that day they explained the (not complicated) concept of ‘splitting the vote’..)

go figure..!

just a ‘means to an end’ eh stuey..

and that end..in this case..just happened to be the tragic reign of monkey-president..

gee stuey..d’ya think those greens might be better advised to either work for electoral reform..or to green the democrat party..?..instead of just splitting the vote..and letting the b*atards in..!

if so..ya gotta be feckin’ kidding..

btw..stuey..are you still defending their actions..?

surely ‘the road to hell is paved with good intentions’ would be the most charitable interpretation of their foolishness..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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]]> By: stuey http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18699 stuey Mon, 13 Nov 2006 01:15:30 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18699 bj said re US greens: "Changing the ballot methodology would be far simpler than winning outright under FPP". I don't think that anyone within the US Green Party believes they can ever win under FFP. I think they believe that standing under FPP is a means to an end, to increase visibility, to get people used to seeing them on the ballot and allow their candidates access to media, and as Marcelski points out, by gaining enough votes they pass a threshold and get funding for the next election. With more visibility and more funding they make a change to the voting system more likely. Prim, I'm sure they do lobby for electoral system change. I don't know how one can assess whether they do it enough to satisfy BJ, but I note that there are 272,000 results on Google for "<a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Green+Party+IRV" rel="nofollow">Green Party IRV</a>" so perhaps that shows that a lot of Greens make a lot of effort to promote it and try and get it established in all the different levels of elections in the US.

bj said re US greens: “Changing the ballot methodology would be far simpler than winning outright under FPP”.

I don’t think that anyone within the US Green Party believes they can ever win under FFP. I think they believe that standing under FPP is a means to an end, to increase visibility, to get people used to seeing them on the ballot and allow their candidates access to media, and as Marcelski points out, by gaining enough votes they pass a threshold and get funding for the next election.

With more visibility and more funding they make a change to the voting system more likely.

Prim, I’m sure they do lobby for electoral system change. I don’t know how one can assess whether they do it enough to satisfy BJ, but I note that there are 272,000 results on Google for “Green Party IRV” so perhaps that shows that a lot of Greens make a lot of effort to promote it and try and get it established in all the different levels of elections in the US.

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]]> By: Prim http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18694 Prim Sun, 12 Nov 2006 23:16:38 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18694 eredwen - Look at where the Act party is now in NZ .... :-) If there are any "very extreme" parties, it seems to me that other minor parties with more moderate policies would be more likely to get more votes and do deal-making. And I'd be cautious about assigning labels; one might rather enquire what motivates the views - possibly better to deal with issues than pretend they aren't there. That is probably something the Greens can identify with ... and noting that many on the right might label the Greens in certain ways.

eredwen –

Look at where the Act party is now in NZ …. :-)

If there are any “very extreme” parties, it seems to me that other minor parties with more moderate policies would be more likely to get more votes and do deal-making. And I’d be cautious about assigning labels; one might rather enquire what motivates the views – possibly better to deal with issues than pretend they aren’t there. That is probably something the Greens can identify with … and noting that many on the right might label the Greens in certain ways.

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]]> By: eredwen http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18689 eredwen Sun, 12 Nov 2006 22:00:35 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18689 bj: There are several facets to Proportional System voting ... A potential problem for the USA could be the rise of seriously- rightwing-nutter Parties (probably proclaiming themselves "Xian"). Here, in comparison, we have comparatively few extremists who think that way. However, in the USA just imagine such a lobby group holding the balance of power with "election deals" made with the Republican Party / Bush Administration ... I wonder if this might be a real concern to be considered by American Greens when thinking about Proportional Voting? ... better the devil you know ?

bj: There are several facets to Proportional System voting …

A potential problem for the USA could be the rise of seriously- rightwing-nutter Parties (probably proclaiming themselves “Xian”).
Here, in comparison, we have comparatively few extremists who think that way. However, in the USA just imagine such a lobby group holding the balance of power with “election deals” made with the Republican Party / Bush Administration …

I wonder if this might be a real concern to be considered by American Greens when thinking about Proportional Voting?

… better the devil you know ?

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]]> By: eredwen http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18687 eredwen Sun, 12 Nov 2006 21:31:45 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18687 bj: I assume that you approached the subject of electoral system change with your usual sensitivity and tact ?? (Just stirring!) Rod Donald would have been the perfect ambassador ... However, we have others in the Green Party of Aoteatoa/NZ who could assist ... as would the German Greens (from whose country we adopted our MMP voting system).

bj: I assume that you approached the subject of electoral system change with your usual sensitivity and tact ?? (Just stirring!)

Rod Donald would have been the perfect ambassador …

However, we have others in the Green Party of Aoteatoa/NZ who could assist … as would the German Greens (from whose country we adopted our MMP voting system).

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]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18681 bjchip Sun, 12 Nov 2006 06:41:38 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2006/11/08/how-will-the-greens-do-in-the-us-midterm-elections/#comment-18681 It has been suggested to them Prim. I might suggest it again were I there, but it takes someone with the vision and the stature to challenge their masochistic desire to be punished at the polling place. It is almost as though having a hopeless cause makes them feel better. I have had some very strong words with some friends of mine in that party over this sort of thing. To this day I cannot guess when they will be led out of the wilderness. It is clear that they must be led from within to do it. respectfully BJ

It has been suggested to them Prim.

I might suggest it again were I there, but it takes someone with the vision and the stature to challenge their masochistic desire to be punished at the polling place. It is almost as though having a hopeless cause makes them feel better.

I have had some very strong words with some friends of mine in that party over this sort of thing. To this day I cannot guess when they will be led out of the wilderness. It is clear that they must be led from within to do it.

respectfully
BJ

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