Actually, I think it was the glow of a coal fire burning at the end of a disused railway tunnel…

Hey, convert the trains to run on West Coast coal – now THAT’S an idea!

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A question for Dr Dunny Brush: was it from an energy efficient lightbulb? Or – as I suspect – a high wattage piece of cr*p?

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I don’t see how we will ever be able to deal with the Nats, but you’re quite right that they have a natural advantage getting business to accept any reforms they actually drive. I just don’t see them being entirely in control of their own destiny. Of course if we have a few seats and can swing control so that they can’t live without us, then yeah, there’s a power play, but our presence in such a government would probably cancel the aforesaid advantage and then some.

Maybe we’ve been studying porcine aerodynamics too long

respectfully
BJ

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Electoral arithmetic, Chip. Alliance with Labour was the right thing to do last time, it’s just that the numbers didn’t work out. It’s not the right position for next time. We need to be as ruthless as Labour. It’s quite likely that the other small parties will be out of parliament at the next election, which greatly increases our chances of holding the balance of power. We would naturally prefer to go with Labour in that case, but we need them to sweat about it. And not shrink from a bidding war!

However hopeless the Nats are, they will end up in government some time soon. Rather than sitting in opposition, criticisising their half-*rsed environmental measures, we need to be on the team driving change, and holding them to their fine words, if they are going to claim environmental wisdom.

It’s also probable that ecological fiscal reforms will be better accepted by business if they come from the Nats rather than Labour.

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Alistair ! Even I would not have gone that far… I am shocked! but are you serious?

Overall I don’t think we need to compromise principles, but we DO need to optimize methods and communications.

respectfully
BJ

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I would say that, in view of what happened last time, the Greens should make no deals before the next election, but make it clear that we’re for sale to the highest bidder. After all, everyone sees this as normal for the other small parties.

And frankly, a close association with Labour like last time would be disastrous. Plus, it’s hard to see any arrangement that would be less effective for environmental policy than the current one. Yes, put social policy on the back burner for three years, and collaborate with National, if that’s what it takes.

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I have seen the light. The Exclusive Brethren showed it to me.

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ekstatek – this is an excerpt from the National Party’s 2005 election policy on climate change:

National’s policy on Climate Change is about ensuring New Zealand jobs and growth are not sacrificed on the basis of equivocal science or commitments that have New Zealand carrying an unfair share of the burden arising from climate change. National wants a more balanced approach that ensures New Zealand contributes constructively to a global response to climate change but not at the expense of jobs and growth.

Now, do you trust them? Or has Don Brash has suddenly seen the light in the past year?

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Genius Says: Go to the blue green national website – they have a survey/feedback section there but you will notice all the questions are framed in such a way that almost no one can disagree with them.

It just reeks of insincerity.

I echo that statement.

That is one of the most poorly designed web sites I have ever seen, and it looks like they paid some high school kid to build it for them the other weekend at less cost than a single one of their billboards in the last election campaign.

If National were truly sincere about this issue I think they would have reflected that by throwing some serious money at that site and hired a top notch professional web designer to do it for them.

ekstatek Says: Its good to see the bluegreen web site as it gives me a option to vote for a party who doesn’t want to import all the aids babies of africa and burma’s child soldiers.

That has to be one of the silliest things I have ever read on this blog.

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Alicia wrote:

“The Greens don’t have to change a word of their social policy, but I think that going into the next election should make it clear that the environment is at their heart, and that those policies will not be backed down on in any negotiations with the major parties.”

That pretty much sums it up for me. And your points about positioning the Greens as the party to hold Labour and National to account on Climate Change (and related Energy issues such as Peak Oil) I think is also a good one. The challenge we have is to create the appropriate sense of urgency for these issues – something that is missing from mainstream debate right now.

And this isn’t about becoming a ‘single issue party’ – it is about getting the most important and urgent aspects of the Greens policies enacted. We can’t afford to dilute this message anymore (as happened with those now infamous billboards that no one could understand) it has to be much more front and centre. After all, social justice is hard to achieve if the environment is going into a death spiral.

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You are right about needing the press to embrace this issue seriously mikeymike. Interesting to see 65.3% of voters thought NZ was starting to suffer the effects of climate change in a stuff poll over the weekend, since stuff polls are so notoriously conservative.

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Something really is happening (Reg!)! There’s real mainstream press op. here: Inconv.Truth seems to have awoken the masses (its intention), reporting on envir. issues (and cl.chg. in particular) can now sell more advertising than ever. Can’t the press now stir it up with climate as the subject rather than petty “gone by lunchtime” issues.

Once the press embraces this seriously we can start having inclusive debate from a more informed platform. ie. more of us will be able to make sense of climate change from an individual perspective. Thats where change must occur. And after all, “you’ve got to think for yourselves. You’re all individuals!”.

You’re bang on Alicia, “Reg has been dominating us for too long”.

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I think most people (read: voters) have come around to accepting the reality of global warming and its cause. Hopefully they care enough to vote based on the consequences this will have on the world. But no, I don’t think National now trying to win Green votes is a good thing for the environment…especially with statements from the Greens saying that it is. Mainly, to effect real environmentally friendly change we need the Greens in power to ensure whichever one of the major parties gets in (and I’m guessing the Nats at this stage) actually applies its green policy and is forced to go further. The Greens need to make this clear: if they don’t, voters who *are* concerned by climate change could easily convince themselves that they’re doing good by the environment by voting the way they always have (whether it be Labour, National or one of the other parties).

I also agree, somewhat, with those voters that like the Green’s environmental policies but not necessarily their social ones: I am a Greens supporter and agree with most of the Greens social policies. However, as far as priorities go, the environment (particularly now) is way at the top of the list for me. The Greens don’t have to change a word of their social policy, but I think that going into the next election should make it clear that the environment is at their heart, and that those policies will not be backed down on in any negotiations with the major parties.

I know the Greens are a complete party, with the most complete policy package going into the last election, but guys: global warming is happening, “something’s really happen Reg”!

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Are they sincere? … Wouldn’t put it past them. Nothing wrong with flying pigs if they bring home the bacon.

Birdie Birdie in the sky
Why’d you do that in my eye?
Gosh I’m glad that
Cows don’t fly…

Nothing wrong?

respectfully
BJ

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Having heard both “announcements” at Friday’s conference, I have to say I found Labour’s pusillanimous attitude hugely disappointing, while National’s “initiative” looks to be “let’s do as little as possible but still look better than Labour”. Their cap & trade scheme applies only to electricity generation (not a huge part of our GHG emissions), it’s not clear whether they intend to link to international carbon pricing (which is essential), and in any event they won’t move any faster than Australia. Dynamic stuff from both our major parties…

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Does anyone else find it amusing the presence of a plastic container on the front of Nationals nice and shiny new policy document…

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Interesting times. If nothing else the National discussion paper and apparent change of heart really highlights how weak Labour are on Climate Change. Labour’s policies are just pathetic and getting worse with each announcement.

The real story here is not so much the big shift by National (let’s see if they can walk the walk) but the fact that Labour has just announced a lurch further towards where National used to be on Climate Change. So at the same time the public is coming to grips with the seriousness of the situation Labour are slowing down on any plan for action even more!

In particular the announcement that nothing will be done in terms of market measures (i.e. cap and trade) for another 6 years if they are still in power (unlikely) is downright criminal. And saying they will do nothing unless the USA and Australia do something first (as our two largest trading partners) is weak and pathetic and hardly in line with our desire to be seen as an innovative country.

The whole thing is summed up for me by the fact that Phil O’Reilly from Business New Zealand is happy with Labour’s policy shift and has concerns about National’s announcements. What Phil likes is very rarely good for the environment and what he doesn’t like usually is.

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Oh dear, even Nick’s joined the climate change brigade. Mind you, he’s so flakey he didn’t last two weeks as Deputy Leader before he went on stress leave and I had to replace him.

Those darn Greens though – even my own MPs are trying to steal their ideas! What a worry!

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Go to the blue green national website – they have a survey/feedback section there but you will notice all the questions are framed in such a way that almost no one can disagree with them.

It just reeks of insincerity.

But I guess trying and being insincere is slightly better than openly opposing…

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frog said…

“..Phil, have you read the Turn Down the Heat paper that Jeanette launched earlier this year? It’s a good start…”

and does not the fact that i have ‘an interest’ in this topic/follow the greens..(through the media and here..)

yet..no..i hadn’t heard of/registered on this greens’ blueprint on climate-change..

(and should just that fact not set off alarm bells for you..?..)

so..what does that tell you about the success of getting that ‘message’/policy out the the punters/voters..?..(those lacking my ‘interests’..)..?

should not by now..this policy (especially this policy!) have been well-’aired’…and able to be reduced to debating points to counter upcoming (similar?) policies from both national and labour..?
(i really wouldn’t be relying on being in the noise/smoke of an election campaign..and being able to ‘sell’ that message….eh..?..)

in fact frog..i would contend that in your reply..you have identified serious flaws/shortcomings in the selling of (any) green messages…

and um..shouldn’t even that alert you to the need to make more use of frogblog..?..as a vehicle to sell/debate those issues..?

and i tell you..if you have enough confidence (as you should) in these policies…
propping up people/spokespeople/mp’s/leaders on frog to debate these issues..will give you much traction/coverage/respect from the rest of the blog-world/media…

(the powers/influence of this world i would not underestimate either..
in fact i would contend the taito phillip field and ‘corruption’ issues wouldn’t have such current import had they not been vigorously pursued by the rightwing bloggers…urging on and inciting the nat mps..)

so..i would contend that the greens need to make much more use of these new technologies..

and..(given the strengnth of/belief in those policies as a given)..this and the rightwing forums would be good places for the greens to effect a (much-needed) raise in the effectiveness of selling/promoting those green policies/ideas..

(others thoughts/ideas on this vexed subject are welcomed..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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