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If that book is not in our local library, I’ll have to take your word for it !

e

August 31st, 2006 at 1:06 pm
F:
“a liberal justice system is positively correlated with a rise in crime.
Weak systems lack incentives for good behaviour.
In addition a radical drop in crime in the 1990’s in the US was due to a rise in abortions.�

This seems rather simplistic to me (to put it mildly!)

You can read about it in this book

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006073132X/ref=nosim/102-2771341-4607 302?dev-t=D2WMCOIPS9D14E&n=283155

F

This seems rather simplistic to me (to put it mildly!)

“One wonders what effect our state baby factory (DPB incentive system) has on our crime statistics.”

Don’t knock the DPB per se. Adopting children out is a minefield in itself, and endless abortions are not the solution!

The problems are much greater and more complex, have arisen in part because of “neglect”, and can only be “fixed” by what you would probably see as “at a large financial cost”

This is an area with which I worked in a closely related field for several years … and will write about in another reply later (when I have time!)

Unfortunately if these cycles are to be broken we need to “throw a lot more money at the problem” in the form of carefully organised and monitored high quality intervention.

BJ:
“I just don’t think this training in non-violence applies to raising kids.”

Francis Xavier:
“Give me the child until he is seven and I will show you the man.”

The Green Charter (of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand):
“Non violent conflict resolution. This principle applies at all levels.”

This is what “we in the Green Party” believe.

(As it seems that you are not familiar with the decision making within the Party:) Such decisions are normally reached “by consensus”.

August 30th, 2006 at 1:33 pm
F:

I agree that “we need to see the big picture.�

The socialization of each child is a part of the “big picture�.

Children learn by example.

Steven Levit in Freakenomics points out that a liberal justice system is positively correlated with a rise in crime. Weak systems lack incentives for good behaviour. In addition a radical drop in crime in the 1990’s in the US was due to a rise in abortions. One wonders what effect our state baby factory (DPB incentive system) has on our crime statistics.
F

That said I DO agree with non-violent resolution of conflicts wherever possible. I don’t pick fights with friends or strangers. I am generally regarded as a “calming” influence in the office and completely un-objectionable (except that I cuss at some inanimate objects that are inhabited by Microsoft malware). My temper is quite controlled.

I just don’t think this training in non-violence applies to raising kids. Kids are quite capable of assaulting each other, and the first few times into the timeout they need some encouragement to stay. I think that teaching kids needs all the tools in the toolbox, and tossing out the one that has 40 million years of evolution behind it, is rather silly. We have enough minority opinions in the green party for at least 4 or 5 parties, and pushing those stones uphill is sufficient a task I should think, without adding yet another unpopular measure to the load.

respectfully
BJ

Absolutely everything. If you don’t share our core belief in non-violence, then you can….

… er, look for a non-confrontational way of working around it.

(nearly said something un-nonviolent there!)

I have no intention of abandoning the most powerful learning mechanism in biology or history for lectures to a child who’s vocabulary has scarcely progressed beyond “Papa” and “Momma”.

I don’t think that total non-violence is achievable for the planet in any case. This is a lovely dream but is likely to be fatal in a real world.

Short answer? No. Not significant.

The significant problem in the USA is the self-righteous god-fearing liars and hypocrites who wound up in power without ever serving in combat or seeing death.

People don’t join the military because they were spanked as kids.

The balance between forcefully standing up for one’s rights and settling things by peaceful negotiation is not struck by removing one side of the balance…. and the need to strike that balance is real. Peace on Earth? I hope for it and I work for it, but I do not for one second believe that it can be had by my simply abandoning my own self-defence and self-preservation…. or that of the nation.

but then I am a guy….

Which doesn’t mean that I want kids whacked at school. I’d allow as if they’re going to get a spanking I need to know why… the parents need to be in control of this. It’s not appropriate for just anyone to do it, and it isn’t appropriate in a school. If physical force/restraint is needed when a child has reached the size and age where he/she can actually threaten a teacher, it is already too late for the lesson to take hold.

respectfully
BJ

I agree that “we need to see the big picture.”

The socialization of each child is a part of the “big picture”.

Children learn by example.

“I can hit you but you can’t hit me because I am bigger than you” is very much part of the “big picture” at many levels in our society and beyond, and I’m sure you don’t approve of it spilling over into the streets?

Look at the current behaviour of the USA in the world today. They would say they are “maintaining discipline”.)

Every one of these proponents started off as a small child …

Some societies do not condone the use physical punishment on their children, and it shows in their societies. I hope that Aotearoa will join them.

I am a retired teacher (whose parents and a grand parent were very successful, respected, and “liked” teachers) None of us ever used “corporal punishment” to “maintain discipline”. There are many more effective methods available … (such as an enthusiasm for what one is teaching, a genuine liking of and respect for the kids, a sense of humour, some skills in “crowd control”, the ability to remain very calm, and some acting skills!)