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If that book is not in our local library, I’ll have to take your word for it !

e

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August 31st, 2006 at 1:06 pm
F:
“a liberal justice system is positively correlated with a rise in crime.
Weak systems lack incentives for good behaviour.
In addition a radical drop in crime in the 1990’s in the US was due to a rise in abortions.�

This seems rather simplistic to me (to put it mildly!)

You can read about it in this book

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006073132X/ref=nosim/102-2771341-4607 302?dev-t=D2WMCOIPS9D14E&n=283155

F

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This seems rather simplistic to me (to put it mildly!)

“One wonders what effect our state baby factory (DPB incentive system) has on our crime statistics.”

Don’t knock the DPB per se. Adopting children out is a minefield in itself, and endless abortions are not the solution!

The problems are much greater and more complex, have arisen in part because of “neglect”, and can only be “fixed” by what you would probably see as “at a large financial cost”

This is an area with which I worked in a closely related field for several years … and will write about in another reply later (when I have time!)

Unfortunately if these cycles are to be broken we need to “throw a lot more money at the problem” in the form of carefully organised and monitored high quality intervention.

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BJ:
“I just don’t think this training in non-violence applies to raising kids.”

Francis Xavier:
“Give me the child until he is seven and I will show you the man.”

The Green Charter (of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand):
“Non violent conflict resolution. This principle applies at all levels.”

This is what “we in the Green Party” believe.

(As it seems that you are not familiar with the decision making within the Party:) Such decisions are normally reached “by consensus”.

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August 30th, 2006 at 1:33 pm
F:

I agree that “we need to see the big picture.�

The socialization of each child is a part of the “big picture�.

Children learn by example.

Steven Levit in Freakenomics points out that a liberal justice system is positively correlated with a rise in crime. Weak systems lack incentives for good behaviour. In addition a radical drop in crime in the 1990’s in the US was due to a rise in abortions. One wonders what effect our state baby factory (DPB incentive system) has on our crime statistics.
F

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That said I DO agree with non-violent resolution of conflicts wherever possible. I don’t pick fights with friends or strangers. I am generally regarded as a “calming” influence in the office and completely un-objectionable (except that I cuss at some inanimate objects that are inhabited by Microsoft malware). My temper is quite controlled.

I just don’t think this training in non-violence applies to raising kids. Kids are quite capable of assaulting each other, and the first few times into the timeout they need some encouragement to stay. I think that teaching kids needs all the tools in the toolbox, and tossing out the one that has 40 million years of evolution behind it, is rather silly. We have enough minority opinions in the green party for at least 4 or 5 parties, and pushing those stones uphill is sufficient a task I should think, without adding yet another unpopular measure to the load.

respectfully
BJ

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Absolutely everything. If you don’t share our core belief in non-violence, then you can….

… er, look for a non-confrontational way of working around it.

(nearly said something un-nonviolent there!)

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I have no intention of abandoning the most powerful learning mechanism in biology or history for lectures to a child who’s vocabulary has scarcely progressed beyond “Papa” and “Momma”.

I don’t think that total non-violence is achievable for the planet in any case. This is a lovely dream but is likely to be fatal in a real world.

Short answer? No. Not significant.

The significant problem in the USA is the self-righteous god-fearing liars and hypocrites who wound up in power without ever serving in combat or seeing death.

People don’t join the military because they were spanked as kids.

The balance between forcefully standing up for one’s rights and settling things by peaceful negotiation is not struck by removing one side of the balance…. and the need to strike that balance is real. Peace on Earth? I hope for it and I work for it, but I do not for one second believe that it can be had by my simply abandoning my own self-defence and self-preservation…. or that of the nation.

but then I am a guy….

Which doesn’t mean that I want kids whacked at school. I’d allow as if they’re going to get a spanking I need to know why… the parents need to be in control of this. It’s not appropriate for just anyone to do it, and it isn’t appropriate in a school. If physical force/restraint is needed when a child has reached the size and age where he/she can actually threaten a teacher, it is already too late for the lesson to take hold.

respectfully
BJ

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I agree that “we need to see the big picture.”

The socialization of each child is a part of the “big picture”.

Children learn by example.

“I can hit you but you can’t hit me because I am bigger than you” is very much part of the “big picture” at many levels in our society and beyond, and I’m sure you don’t approve of it spilling over into the streets?

Look at the current behaviour of the USA in the world today. They would say they are “maintaining discipline”.)

Every one of these proponents started off as a small child …

Some societies do not condone the use physical punishment on their children, and it shows in their societies. I hope that Aotearoa will join them.

I am a retired teacher (whose parents and a grand parent were very successful, respected, and “liked” teachers) None of us ever used “corporal punishment” to “maintain discipline”. There are many more effective methods available … (such as an enthusiasm for what one is teaching, a genuine liking of and respect for the kids, a sense of humour, some skills in “crowd control”, the ability to remain very calm, and some acting skills!)

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If children were raised from infancy with non-violent co-operation and conflict resolution as their role models I think your US military would have a very hard time finding new recruits.

The same might be said for not raising children under this particular form of fundamentalist coroporal punishment ideology promoted at Tynedale.

Don’t you think the high percentage of righteous young god-faring men who sign up in your US military is significant?

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i concur…

perhaps if you stopped trumpeting your pro-smacking view..on and bloody on…(CAPITAL-LETTER-WORDS..and all..)

my god man..!..you really are an american..eh..?

(a nation in chronic need of sub-editors..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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What does this have to do with our core beliefs? Why is it we have to CREATE issues to divide us when perfectly good and far more acceptable and less divisive means of accomplishing the same end exist?

…and how the heck did this thread drift back to 59 vs the alternatives. It was, if I recall correctly, something to do with schools to start with, no?

I know some of you have it firmly in your OPINIONS that this opportunity to make illegal something you believe is unnecessary, is to be seized at any cost. However the politically prudent action was and remains, to delineate and make illegal the ABUSE that must be controlled, not the spankings you think are unneeded.

I note that you seem to be in the minority in this view, in this society, and in almost all others as well. The reduction of the Green party to complete political irrelevance seems a rather rather likely unintended consequence, and I regard your efforts as better serving National party than our own interests.

In other words, if this and other irrelevancies continue to shift the party to the left of left, left center we can kiss our electoral margin goodbye.

This is not a good idea when alternatives that accomplish the stated goal of reducing ABUSE, without committing political suicide, exist.

This is not a good idea when the planet is conspiring to kill off the human species and REAL issues threaten to overwhelm our tiny ability to influence policy and
politics.

I am aghast at the wasted time and effort and political capital here.

BJ
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I find that pretty hard to believe, as I have never seen The Nanny promote techniques which are physically violent or constitute “unreasonable force”.

I would like to see a source link to verify that claim.

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“encapsulated” is better!

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Your “cookoo” story is wonderful !

(An excapsulated picture of parenthood … and all its emotions.)

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