Comments on: Timely release of special report http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/ hopping along the corridors of power Fri, 21 Nov 2008 03:17:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12099 bjchip Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:34:09 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12099 Eredwen - Touche' ! It worked for a long time, until the education of the people, who after all must shoulder the burden of self-government, failed. As to the reasons, many and complex they are, but Jefferson and Franklin both warned that the current goings-on in the USA and its subsequent loss of freedom would be inevitable. I doubt either of them would have speculated on the government lasting 200 years. They seemed to expect the need to water the tree of liberty would arise far sooner. As may be, I have heard such opinions as well. Unfortunately they do not serve when confronted with the treaty. The legal eagles who think a Constitution unnecessary are the beneficiaries several times over, of the treaty's fundamentally fuzzy verbiage. respectfully BJ Eredwen - Touche’ !

It worked for a long time, until the education of the people, who after all must shoulder the burden of self-government, failed.

As to the reasons, many and complex they are, but Jefferson and Franklin both warned that the current goings-on in the USA and its subsequent loss of freedom would be inevitable. I doubt either of them would have speculated on the government lasting 200 years. They seemed to expect the need to water the tree of liberty would arise far sooner.

As may be, I have heard such opinions as well. Unfortunately they do not serve when confronted with the treaty. The legal eagles who think a Constitution unnecessary are the beneficiaries several times over, of the treaty’s fundamentally fuzzy verbiage.

respectfully
BJ

]]> By: eredwen http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12089 eredwen Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:25:02 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12089 BJ I have heard/read our legal experts commenting from time to time that we do, in fact, have the equivalent of your "American Constitution" in the body of our laws etc ... with the real advantage that it therefore updates itself regularly! (This, a legacy of "New Zealand", as a British Colony, originally operating under the British system which had evolved over many centuries.) These knowledgeable people see this as a good way of doing things, and "Constitutional Law" is an important part of our legal system and legal training. As a side thought ... I wonder how well the much vaunted talisman of "the American Constitution" is performing in the current goings on in (and of) the USA ? eredwen BJ

I have heard/read our legal experts commenting from time to time that we do, in fact, have the equivalent of your “American Constitution” in the body of our laws etc … with the real advantage that it therefore updates itself regularly! (This, a legacy of “New Zealand”, as a British Colony, originally operating under the British system which had evolved over many centuries.)

These knowledgeable people see this as a good way of doing things, and “Constitutional Law” is an important part of our legal system and legal training.

As a side thought … I wonder how well the much vaunted talisman of “the American Constitution” is performing in the current goings on in (and of) the USA ?

eredwen

]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12084 bjchip Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:49:44 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12084 I would have to read it through several times to say I agree or disagree. I have not the time to complete that task once at present, and the likely result would be partial. The document is not without size, and it covers a lot of ground. I noted SOME of what I agreed with in a post earlier in this thread. In particular the need for a constitution that entrenches treaty principles but without using those words that make the treaty itself a support system for an several armies of lawyers, litigants and expert witnesses. I may have read it differently than most Kiwis will... there are some trick words in English. "Tabled" means the opposite thing in American to the way it is understood here, and entrenched means something a little different perhaps as well. A point of disagreement, I don't think that the report sufficiently considers the divisive aspect of the treaty. That document does not provide any clear picture of how the people can be divided into Iwi and Pakeha and still united as a country. The instant the constitutional convention formalizes such a division there will be a new report written critical of our racist constitution, with no notice of the fact that the treaty itself binds us to exactly that. I personally think that NZ SHOULD consider setting out on the path to getting itself a formal constitution. It can recognize the Queen or not, no matter really. The important thing is that it creates a formal framework for the laws we currently enjoy and limits to the powers the state currently exercises over us. Also, by clarifying the words and superseding the treaty, it would clear the air considerably... I think it would save us money in the long run... but I shudder to think what an army of unemployed lawyers could do to the country. That's ALL I can say, I skimmed the few points that I was hearing bandied about on the radio. I have not any knowledge of other provisions. Sorry, but I am REALLY busy... and I would as soon pet a cobra as try to get Iwi and Pakeha delegates to agree on anything as powerful as an actual constitution. respectfully BJ I would have to read it through several times to say I agree or disagree. I have not the time to complete that task once at present, and the likely result would be partial. The document is not without size, and it covers a lot of ground.

I noted SOME of what I agreed with in a post earlier in this thread. In particular the need for a constitution that entrenches treaty principles but without using those words that make the treaty itself a support system for an several armies of lawyers, litigants and expert witnesses.

I may have read it differently than most Kiwis will… there are some trick words in English. “Tabled” means the opposite thing in American to the way it is understood here, and entrenched means something a little different perhaps as well.

A point of disagreement, I don’t think that the report sufficiently considers the divisive aspect of the treaty. That document does not provide any clear picture of how the people can be divided into Iwi and Pakeha and still united as a country. The instant the constitutional convention formalizes such a division there will be a new report written critical of our racist constitution, with no notice of the fact that the treaty itself binds us to exactly that.

I personally think that NZ SHOULD consider setting out on the path to getting itself a formal constitution. It can recognize the Queen or not, no matter really. The important thing is that it creates a formal framework for the laws we currently enjoy and limits to the powers the state currently exercises over us. Also, by clarifying the words and superseding the treaty, it would clear the air considerably…

I think it would save us money in the long run… but I shudder to think what an army of unemployed lawyers could do to the country.

That’s ALL I can say, I skimmed the few points that I was hearing bandied about on the radio. I have not any knowledge of other provisions.

Sorry, but I am REALLY busy… and I would as soon pet a cobra as try to get Iwi and Pakeha delegates to agree on anything as powerful as an actual constitution.

respectfully
BJ

]]> By: CutFoldGlue http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12081 CutFoldGlue Wed, 12 Apr 2006 08:59:26 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12081 *sigh* Do you, BJ, agree with the findings? How about other Green members? I voted Greens, my partner is a member, but we both agree with Helen on this one. *sigh*

Do you, BJ, agree with the findings? How about other Green members? I voted Greens, my partner is a member, but we both agree with Helen on this one.

]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12064 bjchip Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:18:37 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12064 CitFoldGlue - I don't think we are organized so that agreement or disagreement is simply determined. We have principles that guide us, but to ask whether the PARTY agrees with some specific report that not half the members have yet read through? Each of us will answer the question individually and eventually a consensus will emerge. respectfully BJ CitFoldGlue - I don’t think we are organized so that agreement or disagreement is simply determined. We have principles that guide us, but to ask whether the PARTY agrees with some specific report that not half the members have yet read through? Each of us will answer the question individually and eventually a consensus will emerge.

respectfully
BJ

]]> By: CutFoldGlue http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12054 CutFoldGlue Thu, 06 Apr 2006 01:09:46 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12054 For sure. But as long as Mr & Mrs White And Middle Class can look across the Tasman and say, "hey! At least our grandfathers didn't try to eliminate their race right up until the 70s", a report like this is not going to generate a lot of traction here. <b><i>Anyway, do the Greens agree with the report or not???</i></b> For sure. But as long as Mr & Mrs White And Middle Class can look across the Tasman and say, “hey! At least our grandfathers didn’t try to eliminate their race right up until the 70s”, a report like this is not going to generate a lot of traction here.

Anyway, do the Greens agree with the report or not???

]]> By: Sam Buchanan http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12050 Sam Buchanan Wed, 05 Apr 2006 22:34:37 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12050 When you say our treatment of Maori was better than most treatment of colonised peoples, I think you mean that we were usually shit scared that Maori patience would eventually run out and they'd kick our sorry arses back to Europe. Consequently, our theft of their resources and decimation of their society was carried out more gradually and cautiously than in some other countries. This we then cleverly presented as evidence of our humanitarianism. The colonial government here has been nothing less than barbaric in its treatment of Maori, but you do have to give them credit for a certain amount of low animal cunning. When you say our treatment of Maori was better than most treatment of colonised peoples, I think you mean that we were usually shit scared that Maori patience would eventually run out and they’d kick our sorry arses back to Europe. Consequently, our theft of their resources and decimation of their society was carried out more gradually and cautiously than in some other countries. This we then cleverly presented as evidence of our humanitarianism.

The colonial government here has been nothing less than barbaric in its treatment of Maori, but you do have to give them credit for a certain amount of low animal cunning.

]]> By: CutFoldGlue http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12045 CutFoldGlue Wed, 05 Apr 2006 08:58:50 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12045 The crux of the matter is this: 90% of white New Zealand (of which I am one) are, if not proud of our 'colonial record', at least relieved that our track record in host peoples treatment is far better than almost anywhere else. A quick glance over the Tasman is all it takes to assuage a lot of guilt! I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just that this explains why even the Greens are none too keen to embrace the UN findings. The crux of the matter is this: 90% of white New Zealand (of which I am one) are, if not proud of our ‘colonial record’, at least relieved that our track record in host peoples treatment is far better than almost anywhere else. A quick glance over the Tasman is all it takes to assuage a lot of guilt!

I’m not saying this is right or wrong, just that this explains why even the Greens are none too keen to embrace the UN findings.

]]> By: Scott http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12034 Scott Tue, 04 Apr 2006 23:42:49 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12034 "It gives Pakeha the right to settle here on land we have paid for" Thought that was the nub of the problem. We often did not pay for the land, if payment was made it was often seen more of a rental not a permanent arrangement, or if it was seen as a normal sale the sale price was too low? If the European settlers didn't destroy the growing economic base of the Maori in the 1800's we would not be having treaty settlements and probably not Maori seats in parliament (perhaps Pakeha seats anyone ;-) ) “It gives Pakeha the right to settle here on land we have paid for”

Thought that was the nub of the problem. We often did not pay for the land, if payment was made it was often seen more of a rental not a permanent arrangement, or if it was seen as a normal sale the sale price was too low?

If the European settlers didn’t destroy the growing economic base of the Maori in the 1800’s we would not be having treaty settlements and probably not Maori seats in parliament (perhaps Pakeha seats anyone ;-) )

]]> By: Henry http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12033 Henry Tue, 04 Apr 2006 23:15:31 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2006/04/04/timely-release-of-special-report/#comment-12033 I have thought a lot about the treaty. It gives Pakeha the right to settle here on land we have paid for; the crown/ govt has the right to make laws, however, the chiefs still have authority over tribal lands and fisheries. In essence the Maori own everything and we only own our backyards and municipal bouroughs (or something). In the official (objective?) census we are New Zealand Europeans, but Maoris ethnicity is of no interest. The Greens see nothing amiss with a nation where an ethnic group own/control/ have authority over the foreshore and seabed etc (for the next 1000 years and beyond). Justice must be done or "blood will flow". One must consider the "Maori world view" where Maori have inherited Kaitiaki Responsibilities (KR's) and have knowlege past down from the spirit world. I think Forest and Bird do a great job with their "Best Fish Guide". Henry I have thought a lot about the treaty. It gives Pakeha the right to settle here on land we have paid for; the crown/ govt has the right to make laws, however, the chiefs still have authority over tribal lands and fisheries. In essence the Maori own everything and we only own our backyards and municipal bouroughs (or something). In the official (objective?) census we are New Zealand Europeans, but Maoris ethnicity is of no interest.
The Greens see nothing amiss with a nation where an ethnic group own/control/ have authority over the foreshore and seabed etc (for the next 1000 years and beyond). Justice must be done or “blood will flow”. One must consider the “Maori world view” where Maori have inherited Kaitiaki Responsibilities (KR’s) and have knowlege past down from the spirit world. I think Forest and Bird do a great job with their “Best Fish Guide”.
Henry

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