shudder…i just googled cheswas…..most definitely not….(gotta stomp on those sorta rumours ..eh…:)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

um..no pip..wtf is aj cheswas…?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

You’re not AJ Cheswas are you phil?

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

eredwen..can i suggest that those chary of entering this environment as an identifiable female follow the example of the classically-named percy over at rightwing blog sir humphrey….

he avoided any possible issues with his birth name by adopting the moniker rightwingdeathbeast..

could i suggest some similar green-themed non-gender-specific nomes de guerre be adopted by the wary..?..

who knows what hidden forces might be unleashed/uncovered by the adoption/nurture of an alter-ego…eh..?

(i did some time newsreading on bfm on wednesday breakfasts as my porn-star-name ‘bruce bellwood’..an aussie blow-in…(mon-tue and thurs-fri i read as me..tee hee..that silly bfm/havoc..)

it was quite strange..i would become bruce on wednesdays..(filling in the blank spaces in his life/bacground.)…

i stood differently when reading..held my head differently….different speech patterns and all..and soooo much fun……havoc and i would play with the bellwood personality..(formerly a highly esteemed aussie broadcaster…with a whiff of (unspoken)scandal following him from over over the ditch)

havoc would constantly throw me curve ball questions(as is his wont) on my/bruces’ past….)

’twas much fun..

i can highly recommmend an outing as a credible alternate personality…:)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Glaister’s VERY INTERESTING assumption: (that my counting, and reporting on, the number of lines written by male and female authors on this thread would be associated with a desire for “a quota system of some sort”) sheds some light on an important “why/how” the Greens and other groups seem to be “talking past each other”.

Glaister assumption was that external imposed discipline, (rather than each individual’s internal self discipline) would be asked for, presumably by me, to “solve the problem” …
whereas my reason for doing the counting and then reporting on it, was to:

1. alert each contributor to a regular behaviour on this blog.
2. that this behaviour is noticed by others,
3. and that it is likely to be one of the reasons why female “would be” contributers don’t stay long!

I did this with the idea that each person would heed this, or not, as he chose …

eredwen

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

icehawk, gender is not all culture – it has a large genetic component. Boys and girls are different from the start. I wasn’t arguing that the term gender is equivalent to sex or that it was unnecessary. I’m familiar with quite a lot of the feminist litterature on gender.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

eredwen:
I wasn’t upset… I think you started counting # of lines by male authors and # of lines by female authors and it sounded like you would have some sympathy with a quota system of some sort. I meant to be a little teasing of course… but only a little!

alastair:
Thanks for comments… I wish I could continue thinking about your interesting replies, but alas I have to get my mind back on my own work. Thanks again.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Glaister :
“I guess parties are a funny sort of private club”

Indeed they are. The Greens are a democratic political party. This may sound like a tautology, but on the contrary, it’s an extremely rare thing. Most parties go through the motions of internal democracy, but actually practise “democratic centralism” à la Lenin/Stalin, where the summit of the pyramid dictates to the base. But it would be completely out of order to legislate on this subject. However S&M it may be, it’s done between consenting adults; and the independence of political parties is a vital intrinsic part of freedom and democracy.

“Should we understand the Greens to be suggesting by their internal arrangements that in their perfect world the law would be changed”

An interesting question.
I think that what the Greens’ internal arrangements suggest is that others should examine their internal arrangements to see whether they are fair and optimal. The fact that the co-leaders are co-ordinators, rather than commanders, is at least as important as gender balance, BUT it is less visible! That’s what I mean about exemplarity.

I have considerable, and painful, experience of zippers, in the French Greens (personally I actually prefer buttons, less threatening to my “gender identity”:)) I think that they are, in some cases, a necessary evil, in order to break a male stranglehold on decision-making positions.

In French law, zipper parity is obligatory in all list-based elections (municipal, regional, Senate etc). This has problems :
* the parties cheat in various ways
* it doesn’t apply to Parliament (single-member system, something like 15% women in parliament!)
but it is having an effect of massification of female participation in political life which is supposed to have a flow-on effect.

I think the single most important element in enabling the participation of women is proportional representation. Winning a nomination for a seat is pretty much always a knock’em down, drag’em out contest, may the best man win. Building a list is another matter : competitive, but also co-operative; and parties have no excuse if they choose not to present a reasonable number of women.

Buddha thinks all is just dandy in NZ because two of the last 20 Prime Ministers are women (the fact that they are the last two, as he will concede, is not statistically significant! ) and because the GG is a woman (an appointed, powerless position, therefore ideal for tokenism). In spite of MMP, less than a third of MPs are women; yet there is no general problem of domination of the political cadre by men. Riiight.

In the context of NZ, I think zipper-type electoral constraints aren’t likely to give positive results. I think the best track is to adapt the mechanisms and practise of political life so that women may find them less distasteful and intimidating. This process will, in itself, improve governance.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Everyone:

I believe that this whole thread has provided an excellent example of why male and female co-positions are a good idea, even with the “given” that in general Greens (male and female) do tend to exhibit more androgynous (and inclusive) behaviour than the general population.

BJ: Listening to Baroness Susan Greenfield (talking to Linda Clark on National Radio this morning) I thought of your enthusiastic embracing of (“concrete”)male/female human brain differences as a reason that is “possibly somewhat overstated”.

Glaister: I wonder at your conclusion:
“(maybe zippered blogs if eredwen had her(?) way!)”
and how you came to that conclusion? .. and why you singled me out?

Rather than “zippering” this blog I would like to see it more inclusive! (and that means more “user friendly” than the recent tone has been.)

Maybe my comments on gender-different behaviour have offended you?

In five days I have said very little:
11:06pm 17/11 I stated my preference for co-leadership(15 lines).
8:24pm 18/11 I said why I supported co-leadership(23 lines).
1:06pm 19/11 I said “Well said”(1 line)
4:30pm 20/11 I ananlysed this thread by gender/frequency/volume(20 lines), because the tone of the blog had become “male competitive”…)
1:47pm 21/11 I answered Ornith in kind. (3 lines)
5:24pm 21/11 I answered bjchip in kind. (5 lines)

… now I have answered you (and anyone else who is up with the play on this thread!)

I have experienced quite an “off putting” atmosphere here, and yet it is a topic on which female as well as male input is vital.

Please all think about what has happened … and why …

eredwen

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Eredwen – With respect to Ornith weak grounds to be sure… Association and naming conventions – which may not be the same here as anywhere I am from. The private/public conversation aspect of it seems rather familiar to me….

Ornith, if you are a guy, it wasn’t intentional.

As for the rest, I readily concede the nature of the contest. However, you are wrong to think us oblivious. I was learning something through that whole “debate” (to be rather charitable about what it was).

You are certainly welcome to hop in and add balance to the conversation, and doesn’t this whole thread rather seriously exemplify the REASON for wanting that balance?

I don’t think it applies to everything… but it may well be a good idea for leadership positions in mixed gender organizations.

respectfully
BJ

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Thanks for comment Alastair:

I guess parties are a funny sort of private club…one with a very special relation to the wider public and to the law in general.

Should we understand the Greens to be suggesting by their internal arrangements that in their perfect world the law would be changed and there’d be at least tolerance of and maybe a requirement for mechanistically zippered hiring everywhere (maybe zippered blogs if eredwen had her(?) way!) etc.? and with general mission-creep one imagines the zipper over time would contain many requirements and be much more intricate than just m/f/m/f…. ?

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

bjchip:

Familiar… yes. Entertaining … no.

You gentlemen seemingly become oblivious to anything other than “scoring that next point”.

I’m interested that you assume that Ornith is a woman.
On what grounds?

eredwen

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

I am SO glad you ladies find the contest entertaining

respectfully
BJ

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Ornith;

You are on to it!

It is both the bollocks and the load … often known as “male pissing contests”.

eredwen

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Buddha : you keep repeating like a mantra (hmm… I mean Ommm…) that the male/female leadership split is not a matter of principle. Though others may have conceded that, I certainly never have.

James (apologies for the sarcasm :]). Deep down, you don’t believe that men and women are different enough to justify equal representation… (this is both fundamentally unknowable, and a matter of opinion).

I firmly believe that a split male/female leadership is a matter of principle, and one which should be stoutly defended against opportunistic attacks.

It is my belief (and my experience) that gender-balanced governance is of generally better quality. Institutionalising the gender balance is the only way of guaranteeing its perennity. I think society in general, in NZ and everywhere else, would be better if this model were generalized. This is why I believe the Green leadership is exemplary, and ought to be maintained for that reason, even if it were somewhat disadvantageous in the short term for the Party (which is by no means sure).

In any case, I think the new co-leader should come from outside Parliament.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Buddh:
“alistair: I don’t think we should have to pay income tax either, or obey the road code. This is a straw man.”

Fair enough, it’s a straw man. But I have a much better idea who I’m talking to now

Glaister :
“In many repects then, if this is so, then Parties function like private clubs, essentially beyond the reach of anti-discrimination law.”

I should certainly hope so. It would be a very slippery slope indeed, messing with the internals of political parties through “political correctness” laws. (You seem to be at the opposite extreme from Buddha, who doesn’t believe in traffic lights…)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

free at last ..free at last..lordy lordy..i am free at last…(ahem..from moderation..and aplogies to the late dr king….)

um…now i’ve got nothing to say….

phil(whoar.co.nz)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

cheers..

phil(whoar.co.nz)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

phil: I have emailed you directly, check the box where you find my messages

All: Moderation is a blunt instrument, apologies if there has been a delay in your posts appearing, we’re still trying to get the new mix right.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Glaister – I was thinking of it more as the co-leadership being a single person in the same sort of legal double-speak that makes a corporation a “person”. I am not encouraging anyone to think like a lawyer, but if they can create legal constructs like that for the corporation I can imagine that the stretch to co-leaders is not too difficult

respectfully
BJ

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)