Katie:

I believe the unwaged provision is still available; but I stand corrected.

Indeed, Die Grunen (German Greens) has a different makeup to us as they were formed from different movements and ideological strands in society. The Greens there were the coming together of anti-nuclear activists, conservationists, feminists, student activists and so on.

The German Greens that we see now is rather factionalised, with the 4 factions being the ‘Fundies’, ‘Realos’, eco-socialists and eco-libertarians. (Yes, imagine a laissez-faire advocate who also cares deeply about the ecosystem.) As a model to follow, I wouldn’t say that we should be emulating them in all respects. However, their role in a coalition government should teach us all a thing or two.

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frog:
there used to be a $5 unwaged/student subscription to membership, not sure when that stopped;

student activity on campuses around the country didn’t seem to be reflected in equivalent amounts of youth membership; perhaps once the financial aspect is addressed, that would change.

I don’t think Germany’s swinging Green party is very relevant to our MMP makeup, they have historically different problems, and huge environmental cleanup issues, not to mention their race issues and employment sagas; Our platform is based on some very different fundamentals.

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BJChip: Sure, Brash could form a government – and if he can cut the right deals, then all power to him. This isn’t any sort of “hole in MMP” – it’s what politics is all about: persuading other people to do what you want, rather than what the other guy wants.

Provided parties are relatively upfront with the electorate about their intentions (even if those intentions are “sell ourselves to the highest bidder”), then I see nothing whatsoever wrong with this.

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I/S

The ability to “form a government” actually exists for both Nats and Labour on the face of it. With Winston willing to “go with the largest” and ACT and Dunne being wooed by the religious right it is QUITE conceivable that Brash could go through very similar gyrations to the ones Clark is performing and form a viable minority government.

That means that ABILITY is not a sufficient discriminator. The mob that goes first almost certainly CAN succeed (if they haven’t totally P’d off the rest of the electorate) – It is a hole in the MMP rules that wants filling and it wants filling before the next election.

The other issue that you address however, is quite interesting. Yes, we probably could band together on specific issues. Cooperation on some things might lead to less recalcitrance on others… I reckon a good thing if it were to come to pass.

Right now I am fascinated by Rod Donald’s call on the foreign home buyer’s getting tracked. It really does seem to me that the money I am competing with to buy housing can’t be all NZ $… there is simply too much of it washing around the place. I hope he gets some traction with this.

respectfully
BJ

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BJ: The right to form a government belongs to whoever can get the numbers. The ability to get the numbers comes from a combination of policy compatibility, negotiation and compromise. And in this, you can’t force people to work with people they don’t want to, or prevent them from negotiating with whoever they see fit. Any “rule” in such an area is simply a waste of time. Not to mention a constraint on the wishes of the electorate.

What is surprising is that (from the coverage, which may of course be incomplete) the negotiations have all centered on the larger parties. Why aren’t the Greens negotiating with the Maori Party, either to gain confidence and supply for the sort of government they want, or to work out areas where they can cooperate on policy? Why aren’t they talking with United Future about student allowances and family support, or NZFirst about a higher minimum wage? There are definite areas of policy overlap, and therefore scope for cooperation between the smaller parties, even if they disagree on almost everything else. Working together allows these issues to be advanced much more effectively; not talking allows Labour to use divide and rule tactics, just as it did last term.

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All these complaints about the party vote going to labour seem to dismiss the issue of the MMP being subverted by the declaration of one of the minor parties that it would support “whoever got the most votes”… leading to the issue of “who gets to form government” being raised on everyone’s radar.

Looked at another way, if Greens had 7% and Labour and Nats were dead equal, who would be forming government. We had a “near death experience” but we also did EXACTLY what was needed to squeeze Labour into a position to form a government first… which was shift party votes TO Labour but without actually killing ourselves in the process.

We were actually marvelously clever about it.

Now we have to get in 123MMP and some rule to dictate the “right of first attempt” to form government.

respectfully
BJ

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From my last message:
I did not complete “The horrible little Rodney Hide…”that should go on to say “…despite his hotch potch of opportunisim and right wing ideology, he comes across as very clever, entertaining and fun.”
His bossy boots line on tv, probably won more votes than anything Rod has said in the last 12 months.
The competition is not to win the approval of Green voting wonks,but winning identification with uncommitted voters.
I am not suggesting all members of a team need to be extrovert stars, but there is little in the current male Green line up to attract uncommitted voters,and that I think was an important issue underling this election.
I actually think Brash appealed to some kiwi blokes and women simply because he was an “aw shucks” awkward green horn.
I know lots of people who feel very unrepresented by the Labour cabinet line up of academics (why they do not push Annette King more, I do not know.She has high credibility)
Similarly I think Meht and Jeanette were the main vote “winners” for the Greens, and worthy though Rod and Keith may be, there is not spark in our male line up anymore.

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Media appeal has not much at all to do with local popularity, ability or overall worthiness.
We all know that Tony Blair has a tremendous image advantage over the Tory and other Labour candidates and that has nothing to do with his qualities as a prime minister but sure matters at election time.
The horrible little Rodney Hide has a
There is not much point in Rod’s local supporters giving witness to his qualities, the fact is that the majority of voters get their impressions from the media,we do not live in Banks peninsula and most voters know nothing about local efforts. These issues might be important but they do not attract nationwide support.
I am listening to Jeanette right now on National Radio,and I am getting instant recognition, mellow voice and clear message. That is just about a perfect score.

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ok alister..i think how it goes is “yes.. we would love you to give us two votes..but ..if you are only going to give us one..could you please make it the party vote..as this is the only one that counts..”

and yes alister..this is a major problem for us…(just look at the voting stats..that will answer your questions..)

a green voter even commented on this site telling us she had given her party vote to labour and her electorate vote to sue k…just to show her support..aarrgghh!

so ..obviously we have failed at getting that message out….(and the billboards certainly didn’t do the trick..too clever by half..eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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I really, really don’t get this idea that people should be DISCOURAGED from giving their electoral vote to the Green candidate.

We all understand, I hope, that directing our supporters’ electorate votes to the local Labour candidates makes precisely zero difference overall — it doesn’t help Labour, even if it results in the local getting elected, they knock someone else off the list.

The concept, I suppose, is that if you’re only giving one vote to the Greens, make it the party vote — but is there really a sizeable slice of the electorate which is determined to split its vote, but not clued up on the consequences?

i.e. are there really a lot of people who, for whatever psychological reason, are happy to give one, but not two votes to the Greens?

I suspect not, and I really think we should be running two-tick campaigns in half a dozen selected electorates.

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so eredwen..how about sharing those voter education ideas you came up with..thank you..

phil(whoar.co

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phil u:

Our province is named for “Aoraki” (you know … the highest mountain in Aotearoa NZ) .. not “aoriki”

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phil u:

How does that saying go? … “One can get some of the message across to some of the people some of the time. It is even possible to get most of the message across to most of the people … etc”
We certainly haven’t yet managed to get all of the message across to all of the people all of the time! Rod is popular in the elctorate and he gets thousands of Electorate votes.

I spent Polling Day (including vote counting time) between two of the highest Green-Polling booths in Banks Penninsula, and have a few ideas to discuss/try for general voter education for the next election campaign.

Kiwis of all ages and backgrounds take their voting seriously, which is an absolute delight to watch, but some (too many) don’t prepare beforehand and end up not doing their best for the Candidate and Party they want to see elected.

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so..eredwen…how are you aoriki greens going with that campaign to convince your supporters that giving rod the electorate vote means diddly-squat..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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Bruce T:

Having reread your post … there are some really good males with excellent qualities on the Green list. All that is needed is a higher Green party vote next time!

Meanwhile the two who are MPs have my full support!

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Bruce T:

I don’t know where you get your ideas about Rod Donald. I live in the Banks Penninsula Electorate and am part of the wider Aoraki Greens. I doubt that any of the people here, who have first hand knowledge of Rod would agree with you, including his constituents who only know him as an MP. (I think they’d laugh!)

The guy is a highly intelligent human dynamo. He works very hard and inspires many, including the young.

I agree with your assessment of Keith, except that I don’t think that people necessarily look for an MP who “sets the house on fire”.

I’d vote for either of them any day! and so would a very interesting group who live in the more affluent parts of Banks Penninsula … the “Blue candidate / Green party” voters.

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Sometimes you get what you ask for,and in this campaign the Greens asked to be seen as the dependable back up partner to Labour …
the options were not all that great.
the foreshore issue ignited Maori nationalism and won over a lot of last election voters on the Maori roll.
Labour certainly gobbled up quite a few students with their no interest policy, and Winnie’s “support the highest score” declaration really made things difficult.
There was no cultist GE campaign (for which I am thankful) and its little sister Peak Oil is really part of the terribly sensible “I told you so…” image that turns a lot of even Green members into very cool supporters.

So we did alright. Greens have obviously a sounder base in the wider electorate than the other “personality” dependent minor parties.

I do think the party had better look to developing a little more spark to its image…

The women in parliament seem to be a pretty good mix, with all of them appearing to be conscientious, hard working with high profiles and a good personal following.
Sadly I think the boys need to do better ….lots better…

our green members are not upstanding, you might say …

Rod is a tired image … visually he has always been bitsy… the mobile strapped to his head was a real turn off for the average punter …the stubble gives a real blotchy look, he is beginning to look like a loser… banging on about coalition when it does not seem a go …

Keith is an admirable m.p. that does his party proud, but he is not an extrovert, and will never set the house on fire, even naked we only smile and look the other way.

Nandor has been wonderful for party brand recognition, but he was the icon for marijuana liberalisation and that campaign has definitely been a big failure.

We badly need one or more guys with the wit and likeability of Meht and/or the iconic serenity and reasonableness of Jeanette, and/or the flash and energy of Sue K and/or the street cred and application to the cause of Sue B.

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alister..take a few deep breaths..and think of the benefits of not being in a full coalition….

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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WRT the lineup being nearly identical to what it was in 1999, I think the “problem” here is more that the Greens have too much talent. Those MPS are all extraordinarily hard working, and have good profile for minor party MPs (far higher than most from NZ First or United Future). And while I’m sure we all want Nandor back in, that would have required the departure of someone currently ranked above him – which would have been just as much of a tragedy.

This was a tight election, and the Green vote suffered accordingly. The key has to be to rebuild it; new blood will come with that. Encouraging membership and active participation is the way forward here. And OTOH, I’m not a member, and have never organised a politicla party in my life, so what the hell would I know about it?

Finally, remember that the Greens are a list party. If they want “new blood”, then MPs can always retire mid-term and allow the first available person from the list to fill their place. But again, I can’t think of a single MP I’d want to go in this fashion.

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HEY! I don’t advocate any big shifts… just some little adjustments! It really would not take much to get from

“Greens – too scary”
to
“Greens – new ideas”

in the minds of our swing voters. Perceptions are formed and pivot on some very small issues here. Things that Greens aren’t even united on for the most part, or are ALL of you in favour of defenseless pacifism

This is New Zealand not Germany and I really do not think we’d have to do much real shifting to get our message heard more clearly out to the electorate. Just take out the show-stoppers and you’re there. Still not centrist and not likely to get over 15% real soon but positively potent.

If I had enough time I might really get stuck into this. This party has a LOT of potential.

respectfully
BJ

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